<p>Consumer: excellent summation…and welcome aboard…</p>
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<p>Obviously you are new to CC ;)</p>
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My parents’ generation lived through the depression, fought (and paid for) WWII, and taxed themselves at rates high enough to fund the great public Universities of our time (while also paying for the construction of a huge legacy of infrastructure - freeways, dams, airports, etc.) We call them “the Greatest Generation.” </p>
<p>I have been able to take advantage of that legacy my entire life, graduating from a terrific University debt-free after paying minimal tuition and thus being able to launch a successful self-employed professional career on a wing and a prayer. It worked out well for me and I am truly grateful to those who went before me and smoothed the way.</p>
<p>So now it’s our turn - the boomers. When it came time for my children to attend college, tuition had increased eighteen-fold compared to what I had paid. Fortunately, the legacy my parent’s generation left me allowed me to underwrite that, so they entered the world debt-free like I did, because as a family we saved in advance and were able to pay off the loans for the balance within a few years of the graduation of my youngest. But my kids are in the minority. Many of their friends started their working lives with crushing debt loads, undertaken to enable them to secure employment in “careers” instead of just “jobs.”</p>
<p>After a series of tax cuts federal income and corporate tax revenues are currently the lowest they have been relative to GDP since WWII. In California, Prop. 13 and the celebrated 2003 elimination of the vehicle tax eviscerated major governmental revenue streams that had been in place since the 1930’s. We pay a smaller share of our income in taxes than our parent’s generation ever did. But when it comes to funding education Boomers complain piteously about “reaching the limit” of our ability to give back to the society which enabled us to achieve whatever level of economic security we have. </p>
<p>“The Greatest Generation?” Not us. My money is on “The Me-Me-Me Generation.”</p>
<p>After a series of tax cuts federal income and corporate tax revenues are currently the lowest they have been relative to GDP since WWII.</p>
<p>True.</p>
<p>Ahem. I’m climbing onto my soap box:</p>
<p>Clearly it costs money to attend an institution of higher learning and someone has to pay for it. You are either in the camp that believes every student for him or herself or you believe that society should underwrite education for the common good. </p>
<p>Each version is expensive. One takes a financial toll, the other takes a toll on the entire country. (Stepping off soap box).</p>
<p>Because scenario one has been taking place since roughly the 1980s, college costs have been soaring unchecked. And regardless of what our political beliefs are, we are all taking it in the shorts now. Much of capitalism depends on marketing and media, and colleges are no different. It helps to take a step back, and really focus on just the quality (as best as we can) of the education we and our children are purchasing. </p>
<p>Is prestige worth $60K a year? Not to me or Max. And thankfully, not to Spygirl. Change is upon us, but it will be driven by student interest.</p>
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<p>I disagree. Wealthy parents are benefitting from the fact that bright middle class kids have to turn down that $250k education in favor of the local state Uni. The wealthy are not being used, but are using to their advantage.</p>
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<p>Kluge: I would guess — and its only a guess – that many folks would support higher ed in lieu of other government programs; it’s not higher ed per se, but the sum total.</p>
<p>Every student is being subsidized by school, alumni, government funding. I think full pay parents overlook that they to are receiving some type of discount while still paying full freight. I am one of those whose child is supposdely getting over on the system. Daughter went to a top LAC full ride, was QB match but if that wasn’t, her Gates would have covered it. If some of you middle class parents resent that, well that’s okay. I am one paycheck away from being homeless, I eat on 20 dollars a week. She is now in med school with horrific loans, but if one of you wants to trade places with me, please let me know. I could use a vacation for my sucky life. But please, carry on with your rants. </p>
<p>@GA2012MOM
Nice for your kid to be doing what she’s doing!!! Honestly awesome:)
I’m not going to rant your sucky life, maybe you need to know mine. Hispanic immigrant that came at age of 26, worked as a live-in housekeeper/nanny, driver…Let’s move forward years!!! Yes, I’m blessed and nobody, not one person gave anything! Guess what? I’ve earned it all</p>
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Most people justify their opposition to paying the same level of taxes as our parents did by complaining about one or another specific governmental expenditure which they are just absolutely convinced is rewarding bad people at the expense of good people. Welfare and foreign aid are two common examples, even though they hardly register a blip in the federal budget. In the 1960’s it was sanctimonious lefties refusing to pay the portion of their telephone bill which was deemed a “war tax” during the Viet Nam war. I never bought that story or respected the “tax protesters” back then, either. Considering the deafening volume of caterwauling over the current level of taxes, the idea that a significant number of people would support increasing taxes back to their previous levels even if the extra was all funneled to education strikes me as unlikely.</p>
<p>There’s a lot of hay to be made by telling people that they are victims of “others” and that’s why their taxes are so “close to the limit.” Those who have internalized that message are unlikely to support a common investment in education which benefits all young people.</p>
<p>The problem with “common investment in education” is the huge number of incompetent, unqualified educational administrators and even some teachers and the huge power of the teacher’s unions. How is it that Catholic schools and Christian schools routinely produce National Merit Scholars on a budget of 6,000 dollars per child, and meanwhile districts like Camden, NJ routinely spend over 15,000 dollars per child and produce kids who can’t read? I don’t mind paying for the military because they appear to be fairly competent at the mission that they have been given. The education system – not so much. Have you been following the scams regarding the for profit universities which take students’ money and give them nothing in return? Have you been following the default rates on student loans? Throwing more money at education is the equivalent of throwing it in the trash. At least military R and D has created lifesaving technologies which will benefit all of us. How does paying a principal in NYC to not show up for work for SEVERAL YEARS benefit anyone? </p>
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<p>I think that is a great story about your daughter. She has loans–big deal. She will be able to pay them back without issue. My brother and his wife started their post-college life being $280,000 in debt. That was the cost of becoming doctors. They paid it off. They essentially borrowed money to start a business, and the business paid down the debt. Your daughter will do the same. </p>
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<p>You’re right. I would never support a common investment in education via increased taxes because the government is not competent enough to run such a program, especially the government in its current iteration. It would be pissing away good money. You seem to cling to these glory days of high taxes that our parents paid. Do you actually have any idea where that tax money went? Defense was ~40% of government spending in the 50’s and 60’s(14% now).They spent money on infrastructure–we buy cell phones for drug dealers. We spend far more on education now than they did then. Unfortunately, most of our tax dollars now have to go to welfare, social security and health care, and increasingly, debt service(those together are ~60% of government spending).</p>
<p>Not every child will benefit from a college education. Nearly half who start college don’t graduate now. In fact, the increasing numbers of college applicants from lower in the academic ability distribution has significantly dropped the college completion rate over the years. College is not a right, and our taxes already go towards public education in a huge way. In my state, half of the university budget is tax dollars. Throwing more and more dollars at education has diminishing returns.</p>
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<p>Agreed, but I was suggesting a substitution instead of an addition. For example, if instead of a trillion dollar Ag bill – recently passed – it was reduced to say, food stamps and health/safety inspectors, billions could have been made available for education. No one would have batted an eye, except for those corporations at the federal teet, such as the stockholders of Archer Daniels Midland.</p>
<p>yes, because the food stamps program is so well administered and effective:
<a href=“The Economic Collapse”>The Economic Collapse;
<p>We’ve had low taxes for decades now, and I’m not exactly seeing the great economic boom that they were supposed to bring. Personally, I fear that we’re approaching a limit–and that’s the limit of how much economic inequality your system can tolerate before you have a major disruption.</p>
<p>I would pay more taxes if I didnt have to read articles like this.
<a href=“Military use of food stamps rises again”>http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/17/news/economy/military-food-stamps/</a></p>
<p>California’s Prop.13 and Oregon’s Measure 5 have decimated education in these two states. To top it off, Oregon has no sales tax. Drive across the bridge into Washington, (sales tax, education support) and teachers make $15- $20K more per year, students are stronger and graduation rates are higher. </p>
<p>We live in a rural area with low property tax. The result? Underperforming schools, limited services, a county on the verge of bankruptcy. A man nearly drowned yesterday when his car was caught in a huge pond created by heavy rain. The reason? 911 had no one to send to help him out of his trapped car. The county sheriff and local police departments are operating on a shoestring. More than a half hour went by before the fire department arrived. Thankfully, a passerby saw him and managed to get a door open. </p>
<p>When you pay higher property tax, that money is directed by the state and ultimately your school district. The closer to home, the more power we have as taxpayers to exact the change we want to see. But nothing is free. </p>
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Well, I’d agree with you, but since the fight in Congress was over cutting food stamps, and not AgBiz subsidies - I don’t think you have your finger on the pulse of the national psyche. Apparently lots of eyes would be batted over your proposal.</p>
<p>No, what you get are comments like those from Momzie and Parent 1337, which I’d characterize as rationalizations for not paying to educate “anyone’s kid but mine.” It’s easy to point to every wart in the system (and all systems have warts) and declare that publicly funded education is a failure - ignoring the differences between the challenges faced by a K-12 school system which is required by law to provide an education for every single student in the jurisdiction, regardless of mental, physical or emotional disabilities, home environment, etc., and a system with a more select student body; or tossing off a shot at private, for-profit colleges into a discussion of public, state run universities. As tempting as it is to dismiss blather about “cell phones for drug dealers” as nonsensical ideological nonsequiturs such comments are not insignificant: Momzie and Parent 1337 represent the nature and breadth of the rationalizations that can and will be thrown against the wall in any discussion of spending tax-generated funds to benefit everyone, and not just “ours.”</p>
<p>I admit my prejudices: I attended excellent public schools, K though JD. My kids all attended excellent public schools, K through BA/BS (so far.) I acknowledge my debt to the taxpayers of the State of California. But I also recognize that the level of taxpayer support for the University of California has plummeted since I went there. State funding per student at UC is now half what it was in my college years (in constant dollars.) The deficit has been backfilled by raising tuition almost 2000%.</p>
<p>As a nation and a generation we’ve turned our back on joining together for the common good. It’s all “I, me, mine” with glib rationalizations about how funds spent on others are “wasted.”</p>
<p>But in the end, it really is the middle class kids who get the shaft. The wealthy do OK, as they always have. The poor have a shot, although it may be akin to a lottery win in terms of odds against. But the children of middle class families are destined to start life as indentured servants, required to “work off” their bonded debt before being able to take their place as free men and women in society. (And if you think I’m overdramatizing this, take a look at the balances, interest rates and payments on the loans young people leave college with. $280K in debt for M.D.s is a prudent investment. $75K of debt for a B.A. is nothing more than a required ticket for General Admission to the world of employment, and the four year COA at UC is now in excess of $120,000.) </p>
<p>I didn’t face that as a young man. My own children have been spared that because I was able to capitalize on the benefits past taxpayers paid forward for me. But I look around and see a sea of 20- and 30-somethings who are still shackled to the debt they had to incur to gain admission into the economic world. I think that as a generation we have failed because we have collectively fallen for the siren song of “You’re a victim. Don’t share with them. They don’t need it. They’re unworthy. They’ll just waste your money.” </p>
<p>And I think as a result we all have and will continue to suffer the consequences.</p>
<p>^This!</p>
<p>Kluge: excellent analysis. Thank you.</p>
<p>It occurred to me a while back that it’s perhaps difficult for indentured servants to constructively challenge their masters. </p>
<p>Momzie, I bet you the data would show a direct positive correlation for SAT scores, catholic schools and family income. The issues with Camden isn’t only mismanagement by administrators but more evidence that money won’t easily cure the education gap for the impoverished.</p>
<p>As for the military, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is a great example of gross mismanagement. It is 70 percent over budget and years behind. At $130 million per plane, roughly 9,000 Camden students can get an education. I respect the military and the sacrifices they make for all of us. But no branch of government should be shielded from scrutiny or condemnation when it comes to their budgets. </p>