The Test From Hell

<p>The problem is that people are loathe to believe that there is true variation in intellectual ability, and that by "leveling the playing field", people come out more or less even.</p>

<p>It isn't true in the real world, and I don't know why we have to pretend that it is.</p>

<p>Learning differences are very real. There is no question whatsoever about the presence of language learning disabilities like dyslexia. They are easy to test for and diagnose.</p>

<p>"Testing" for ADD, Executive Function disorders, depends mainly on teacher/parent questionnaires, not diagnostic tests, standardized across a nation of peers. The fact that there are millions of medicated children, based on a whim of a doctor 'interpreting' a questionnaire should be cause for alarm. The school or test accommodations that evolve from this overdiagnosis are merely troublesome...the overmedication is truly horrifying.</p>

<p>Many times LD's do not show up until 7th or 8th grade--a time when kids are more greatly challenged academically than previously. I wouldn't make the assumption that kids diagnosed at this age necessarily have parents who are trying to game the system. In my older son's case, it was his 7th grade English teacher who referred him for testing.</p>

<p>It is not easy to get accommodations at a large university (in our case, Penn State) in my experience. At that school, one needs two standard deviations between IQ and achievement, which is ridiculously huge, imo.</p>

<p>Maybe not everyone belongs in college and perhaps there are better choices in life for kids with attention deficients, learning disabilities, low intelligence, and other limitations.</p>

<p>Ha Edad! Can't wait to hear the conversation that ensues from your comments!</p>

<p>BTW, HH, I didn't say a word about middle school aged kids and diagnoses, only about mid to late high school kids, who "suddenly" get diagnosed, right before it is time to take the PSAT or SATs.</p>

<p>Several academics I know have dyslexia. I knew one who was so intent on overcoming this handicap (and proving naysayers wrong) that he became fluent in ten or so Central Asian languages. He definitely belonged in academia and became a tenured prof. He is still revered among students of Central Asian studies.</p>

<p>It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or Ph.D. psychologist) to tell if a kid is bright but that his academic work is lacking. In my son's case, his English teacher had taught 7th grade for 35 years (recently retired). The testing and ensuing bureaucratic nonsense was just a backup. It was a relief to him to learn "officially" that he was not "stupid." I shudder to think what may have happened if his self-esteem continued to plummet. These sound like buzz-words, but they're not when it happens in your family--unless you've experienced it personally, you have no idea how undiagnosed ld's can impact an entire family, most especially siblings. We learned to praise and teach my son to build on his strengths, and to accept his deficits. I don't know about medications, since my son didn't have ADD or ADHD, but I would leave that choice to individual families. I think I would rather err on the side of over-diagnosis than under-diagnosis.</p>

<p>There have been many articles coming out in the recent past about families getting the accomodations through high priced psychologists in order to game the system. Maybe that's why it is becoming harder to get them.</p>

<p>Most kids will score slightly higher on both the math and CR portions of the SAT if they have more time. I imagine the essay would be much better too.</p>

<p>The thing is, edad many of the very brightest people have some form of LD or attention deficit. A much higher percentage of people with these conditions score in the gifted range on IQ testing than is true in the "normal" population. Not fostoring those gifts is a tragic waste of a precious natural resource. If we find better ways to identify and teach this population we will all benefit greatly.</p>

<p>I'd actually kind of like to see the SAT given with infinite time for everyone. I realize it would be a nightmare to proctor and will never happen, but I do think it would test kid's real abilities better. (Perhaps part of the reporting would be a notation of exactly how much time you took...) </p>

<p>For what it's worth, I've got one kid who would probably do the SAT in less time than is currently allotted and one who needs more.</p>

<p>"The thing is, edad many of the very brightest people have some form of LD or attention deficit."</p>

<p>I agree. Maybe that means we need other measures and criteria for college acceptance. That still does not mean we should try to rig the SAT/ACT results and pretent that the LD or attention deficit does not exist. I also think it is true that college may not be the best choice for all kids. Some kids just have LDs, attention deficits or lack of interest and determination. Sometimes there are no special gifts or abilities to compensate for the deficiencies.</p>

<p>"Children with legitimate problems will still be able to get extra time. I haven't seen one denied. It is those with the "recent diagnoses" who may not, and I understand the reasoning very well."</p>

<p>You haven't seen "one" denied? Are you on the accommodations committee of CB? How you could possibly make such a universalist statement, not having access to the number of cases they receive every year? I'm glad that in your little corner of the world you have omniscience, but your "knowledge" and "sight" is highly limited in the wider scheme of themes. Examples do not legitimize your statements, particularly one of your more outrageous ones:</p>

<p>"For children with legitimate processing delays, the problem didn't pop up when they were 15 or 16, but has been present all their lives," </p>

<p>^^with a mild nod to the most important phrase in that sentence:</p>

<p>"or certainly since work required quicker processing..." </p>

<p>^^Which, by the way, if you were a professional in the field, which clearly you're not, you would know is NOT "by middle school" IF that LD student is particularly bright. (And usually only if he/she is particularly bright.)</p>

<p>It is a category of LD student called the Highly Compensating that is most impacted by CB policies, because this is the category that is most often never accommodated below "age 15 or 16", yet can be as affected by lack of accommodation as a student accommodated since grade two.</p>

<p>The HC child can often tough it out until particularly complex subject matter arrives suddenly in grades 9 (if in Honors classes) and 10. And even then he/she may continue to cope & compensate in CLASSROOM work well enough not to be noticed by teachers & testing administrators. Classroom work & homework will not necessarily reveal the extent of the processing problems which manifest, for example, with foreign language (typically not begun in earnest until age 14, with significant demands in that language not expected until age 15, the second year of that language). That's just one example. </p>

<p>The tests in high school and in college (edad), as well as the universal opportunity to prep for these to develop strategies, are dramatically different than standardized ENTRANCE (gatekeeper) tests such as SAT or ACT. Apples & oranges? Try grapes and watermelon, or asparagus & artichokes. </p>

<p>I would contrast the SAT/ACT with an AP exam, for one. While the volume of an AP exam is often more condensed than a college final exam, it does more closely mimic a college-level challenge in category (timed recall of RECENT CLASSROOM material) than does an SAT/ACT. However, there is a readiness difference, intellectually, between a junior in h.s. and a college student. This may be easy to forget with all the college-bound curriculum our kids engage in, but the brain does keep developing, the learning curve continue to get shorter when it comes to processing in general, and to integrating that processing. A junior in college may pass a high-content exam similar to the AP US History exam more easily than when a junior in high school fresh from the specific course. (A student even with no LD.) The brain has developed a readiness for assimilative processing at age 20 that is not as mature at age 16.</p>

<p>In general, LD'ers, even the borderline & HC variety, are usually advised to limit the number of AP courses/exams in h.s. Actually, this is realistic relative to college. It is less likely that a college load would result in the equivalent of, for example, 5 "AP-style" exams during finals week, but more like 3 in that category, 2 exams in a very different category not requiring that level of memorization/fact recall, but rather application of content and even creative integration of that content -- an area that the Highly Compensating, High-IQ LD student often excels in.</p>

<p>What I see on this thread is tremendous lack of understanding of the subject, combined with prejudice, combined with a preference for personal stories as somehow supportive of a blanket denial of those students most legitimately needing the accommodation for STANDARDIZED TESTING ONLY. One of the many problems with CB policies is that the highly compensating LD'er often does not want (even if he/she needs it) the classroom accommodation, because he/she -- particularly if an artsy type -- has invented enormously creative ways around his or her LD, and is used to that style of coping, which he/she has found successful, if time-consuming & complex. Simply put, the CB policy is not designed with the highly performing LD student in mind. But hey, this is no different than what has been true in this country for years: the most neglected category of student is the gifted student (as opposed to merely the high-achieving robotic memorizer). He is the least recognized as having different needs & outstanding capabilities & valuable academic talents which should be fostered. If he has even one LD manifestation he is labeled as lazy or underperforming (because of the contrast between the obvious IQ/talent & the occasional struggle with a timed test), when in reality he is outperforming his non-LD classmates on most measures of achievement & ability. </p>

<p>The reason that the CB does not report accommodation to colleges is simply that the accommodation is irrelevant. What accommodation does is to allow that student to perform only to the best of his ability, not beyond that ability. That is why, yes, the accredited testing (verifying that) is so critical. I've never denied that CB should require evidence of professional testing. Fine if they prefer the school district's test. Unfortunately, as the author of that article found out from experience, almost too late, CB misleads the public into believing that non-school tests are just as acceptable; if you think I'm wrong, then you haven't read their literature. I have that current literature. It is deceptive, in fact inaccurate, as the linked article demonstrated with the family's experience.</p>

<p>Allmusic has no statistics supporting a claim that the number of cheaters is greater than the number of legitimate applications. In fact the reports from the CB would tend to support the reverse proportion. But family results also support my contention that CB is overwhelmed with authoritatively tested accommodation applicants, and prefers a $500,000 salary to a $500,000 investment in educated, trained staff to work this level of load. No different than the NY office admitting to me several summers ago that CB is overwhelmed with the population of test-takers & had not the staff to handle routine administration of the SAT for the general population.</p>

<p>As to the retort about the IRS, this is fruits vs. vegetables. If I am randomly audited or my returns scrutinized, I have a grievance avenue, and further, I have a window of time to redress my grievances. It's a pain in the butt, & may even slow down my life, but does not prevent me from entering a college of my intellectual peers as a freshman, immediately from high school. The window of opportunity for a 4 yr college as an 18yr old is short & unforgiving. In some cases, depending on the college, the applicant may appeal, but in this college market, the likelihood of a victorious appeal is slim. The consequences of the CB's behavior are far more significant & permanent in terms of one's future than the IRS "cracking down" on all because of the illegality of some. </p>

<p>It's interesting that the same people who believe that maybe we just shouldn't let LD kids into college -- LOL -- probably have no difficulty understanding why Stephen Hawkings can be brilliant, why blind people are not intellectually impaired unless the blindness is accompanied by a truly debilitating disease limiting intellectual <em>capacity</em>.</p>

<p>Edad, your last 2 posts do show that you seem to have huge misunderstandings about what LD is and is not. It is not stupidity or slow-wittedness or a sign of 4-yr college unreadiness. However, depending on the degree of LD, combined with the level of intelligence, quality of preparation, combined with the level of interest in academics period, some LD'ers may yes, be better off not in a very demanding college program, or a highly selective college, or any college. But so are many non-LD'ers not suited to traditional college. In fact, most of the students I teach are not going to 4-yrs, and none of those who are not going, are LD. They're not going because (1) their earlier education was abysmal, therefore their brains have not developed to a level needed for college, and/or (2) their immediate environment does not encourage it, for one reason or another, (3) they do not meet qualification standards for even a moderately selective college.</p>

<p>H, Y, and P all include some LD students. It's just that they are the highly functioning variety.</p>

<p>As my mother used to say, "Are you done yet?"</p>

<p>I am very amused that the very person who has railed on and on about the money spent on "services" for ELL or SPED in school is now admonishing those who question questionable requests for CB accommodations! Seems the person who claims to have such a deep understanding of children with learning differences would be a proponent of large special education and ELL budgets. Bit of hypocrisy there! ')</p>

<p>It's interesting you mention language--my son could not get beyond two years (at a borderline C grade) in high school. There is a real possibility he may not get his B.S. degree because of the 12 credit language requirement for his major, despite the fact that he has achieved straight A's in his major and minor courses. He is not eligible for accommodations due to the fact that his discrepancy is not quite large enough at his school to qualify. You may think I'm joking: I am not.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The reason that the CB does not report accommodation to colleges is simply that the accommodation is irrelevant.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If accommodation is indeed irrelevant, then there should be no problem with once again flagging scores of students who get extended time. Why is there no outcry on this point from the community of parents whose kids have legitimate diagnoses of disability? I don’t think it takes a crystal ball to predict that the number of kids asking to take tests with extended time would decrease dramatically if flagging were resumed. Gamers, after all, don’t want Harvard to know that little Johnny got a bunch of extra time to take the SAT. That would diminish his genius. And fewer gamers in the system would give ACT and CB more time to properly evaluate requests for time made by kids with real disabilities.</p>

<p>Exactly, WJB. It is because the accommodations aren't reported that there is so much abuse of the system. I am surprised that it has taken the CB so long to crack down on the gamers.</p>

<p>With transparancy, this cheating would be less likely to happen. However, transparency will not occur with the current ADA laws. Thus, the CB had to respond as it did.</p>

<p>I agree that the accomodations should be revealed. My D will more than likely mention her visual problem in her essay, or the GC will do it, so we certainly would not object. I think it would cut way down on the abuse.</p>

<p>So I continue to be puzzled. </p>

<p>IQ tests don't measure much. It is debatable that any "ability" test measures much of anything relevant outside the test. Don't believe me? Go read read Gould's Mismeasure of Man.</p>

<p>Saying that, some now claim that "somehow" we can identify superior students that are not performing up to potential, send them to some sort of evaluator, and give them a label that says they're brilliant after all, just learning disabled? And they deserve compensation for that? </p>

<p>I guess I come from the "you are what you are" school that recognizes that not everyone can be great on every dimension.</p>

<p>maybe some of us DO understand, but just don't accept that these problems are always beyond normalcy.</p>

<p>I'm seeing some red here.</p>

<p>My daughter qualified for accommodations. I'll give an example of her dyslexia: when looking at a multiple choice problem, she may correctly conclude that the answer is "a". But when she goes to fill in the bubble, her mind messes with the shape of the letters, and she may incorrectly fill in the "c". One of her accommodations in school was that she mark up the original test instead of use an answer sheet, because she would write the wrong letter on an answer sheet even though she knew the correct answer. </p>

<p>In math, she reverses and miscopies numbers. In a long math problem, she gets every step correct but in one line may have written 48 instead of 84, which results in the wrong answer.</p>

<p>Over time she has gotten better. She needs to work slowly, write carefully and check her work to make sure she doesn't make those processing errors. Her mind reverses letters and numbers and causes her to write the wrong thing -- even though she may "see" it as the right thing. She knows the right answers, but needs time to make sure that the test reflects this. </p>

<p>And in reading, since her mind reverses letters (yes, she really does read "saw" when it says "was") she needs to read slowly to make sure she doesn't make those errors. </p>

<p>So tell me, eDad, is my daughter below average and so not college worthy because she copies the wrong answer down and so might score lower on the SAT -- even though she knows the right answer?</p>

<p>Frankly, I couldn't care less if her accommodations had been noted on her test. Her essay described the hell she went through to learn how to read and how she overcame that. She's never been ashamed of her dyslexia. It made school tough, but she worked extra hard and extra long to get good grades.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Exactly, WJB. It is because the accommodations aren't reported that there is so much abuse of the system. I am surprised that it has taken the CB so long to crack down on the gamers.</p>

<p>With transparancy, this cheating would be less likely to happen. However, transparency will not occur with the current ADA laws. Thus, the CB had to respond as it did.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is absolutely correct. The blame for the current and unfortunate situation rests squarely on the shoulders of the organization that lobbied and sued for the non-flagging. Newmassdad correcly called it, "It troubles me because the profession doing the defining, developing the diagnoses, treatment and ed plans, is one noted for its lack of rigor."</p>

<p>Considering that members of the profession openly advertised the availability of "diagnoses" for NO other purposes than gaming the SAT, I don't see how one could blame the College Board for its reaction. After all, the College Board is not responsible for the explosion in the numbers of accomodations requests that originated from the toniest and wealthiest communities in America. </p>

<p>Fwiw, the time restriction is one of the MOST important facet of the SAT tests. Added time renders the test almost trivial. </p>

<p>The only solution is to stop this non-flagging nonsense and to revert to a system where schools see the results clearly and ... completely.</p>

<p>PS One area where TCB deserves a LOT of blame is when they offered the SAME test given on Saturday to the special accomodations students the following week.</p>

<p>"Not fostoring those gifts is a tragic waste of a precious natural resource. If we find better ways to identify and teach this population we will all benefit greatly."</p>

<p>Are we really talking about situations where people are shut out of college completely by the CB's refusal of accomodations? Or are we talking about people who are already scoring at or above the mean, and therefore won't have a problem getting into a university SOMEWHERE, but want to get those extra points so they can get into a more competitive school?</p>

<p>You hear about people increasing their scores enough to get into Harvard and the like, using accomodations. I have a hard time believing they started out with such lousy scores that they wouldn't have been able to go to college to begin with, and thus would have been a 'tragic waste of resources.'</p>

<p>PS: My son ended up scoring in the 1400's/2100's after it was all said and done. On PRACTICE tests, without using the clock, he routinely scored in the 750+ range on all sections. Sure would have been nice to get extra time. He surely would have been better off in the application process with a 1500/2300+. Is he part of that tragic waste of resources? :eek:</p>