<p>
[quote]
This phenomenon is known as 16-year-old male situational ethics.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>ROTFLMAO!!</p>
<p>Well, get this. My D liked Princeton much better after the fashion show - yes fashion show - which involved boys and girls modeling underwear. She said the boys were just "beautiful!" So the situational ethics may be teenage-wide.</p>
<p>doddsdad:
Wow, great observations about Denison! As you know my son was accepted at both Kenyon and Denison, and is going to Denison. That is partly due to a nice scholarship, but also he felt it was slightly more balanced feeling than Kenyon. (I'm not sure exactly what he meant by this...) Kenyon is a family legacy - father, grandfather, 2 great uncles and 2 second cousins all attended. So much for the rivalry! Well, so glad your trip went well and thanks for the great reports. Good luck to your son.</p>
<p>Doddsdad: Our S is already in college, but your posts are great reading!</p>
<p>P.S. Rutherford B. Hayes has been a role model for me ever since I read that he used to read in the bathroom.</p>
<p>Alumother, ROFL about the fashion show. My daughter would have LOVED that. In fact, "cute guys" is one of her main criteria in picking a college.</p>
<p>It may have been purely coincidental, but the schools I looked at most seriously had the most attractive tourguides. Kenyon certainly isn't lacking attractive people... it's overwhelming at times!</p>
<p>There was a thread not too long ago on why better schools have more attractive students... you may want to search for the thread and read up.</p>
<p>kclady,
My apologies! My comment wasn't meant as a slight or an implication that Denison students were more attractive. The students of the non-male variety were a factor in why he was so
ah
attracted to Kenyon. As we drove into Kenyon, he missed the sign for the Kenyon Inn because he was...um..distracted. I didnt find out about that for some time, he kept making excuses, But the sign was on your side of the car!</p>
<p>(Note to self: Do not step in minefields. Do not step in minefields. Do not .)</p>
<p>dstark,
We definitely learned that campus visits are valuable. I'm also convinced that overnight visits in the dorms would be even more helpful. Assuming S has choices to make next spring, that will be his 2006 spring break trip. </p>
<p>Regarding campus beauty. Denison certainly has a wonderful campus and setting. My son commented that Vandy was probably the only campus with more trees, and it's an arboretum. Was it the most beautiful? Maybe. I recently made a note to myself not to step in minefields, so...I'll say the most beautiful campuses we visited (unranked) were: Centre, Vandy, Kenyon, Denison, and Hanover. From my perspective when you combine setting (surrounding community, geographical features, etc.) with the campus: Kenyon, Denison, and Hanover.</p>
<p>Weenie,
Your son was able to choose between two good schools. Congratulations to him. I'd like to hear about your son's experiences at Denison. It will help us make decisions in the fall and spring. Please remember to share with us. Thanks</p>
<p>Dadofsam,
LOL! I'll have to reconsider the impression my son gave me about R. P. Hayes. Now that's the kind of information they should be teaching in AP U.S. History!</p>
<p>It is with some trepidation that I write this since I follow Carolyns excellent Earlham review. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=48507%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=48507</a>
I made a copy of her review before we left, but I purposely did not share it with my S. Out of respect to Carolyn, this is not a review but a chronicle of our experiences and impressions at Earlham. Chronicle That sounds kinda pretentious, but I am writing about high quality colleges/universities and higher education. I think I like it! Ive decided to retroactively apply the chronicle label to everything Ive written about our college visits. </p>
<p>Despite Carolyns warnings to us, we still managed to get confused driving through Richmond to get to Earlham. It really isnt that complicated, but we missed a sign somewhere. My S the navigator didnt even have the excuse of a Kenyon coed distracting him this time. However, we were not lost, only confused and we soon found our way. BTW, Richmond is either a capital T Town, or a small c city. It probably depends on where you grew up. Not a bad place, but certainly not as picturesque as Gambier, Granville, or Danville. Apparently town-gown relations are not perfect, but they all get along most of the time. </p>
<p>One of the reasons I didnt share Carolyns review with S was his reaction to Oberlin. I didnt want him prejudging. I think he read the Fiske guide description for Earlham, but Im not sure. When we arrived at Admissions, they had a great schedule set up with a class visit, followed by a tour, interview, and lunch, followed by another class and meeting with a professor in the afternoon. While he went off to class, I wandered around campus, took a few pictures and found a swing hanging from a tree in the middle of what I believe is the heart quad (actually more circular) described in Carolyns review. Judging by the grass worn away beneath the seat, it was used frequently. I immediately started liking Earlham. How can you not like a school with a tree swing in the middle of campus? The academic campus is relatively compact, nicely laid out, and attractive. Most of the dorms are near the academic buildings, with a few theme dorms in houses that bordered the campus. </p>
<p>Ill be painfully honest now and admit that rather than wandering around campus accosting students with questions and making notes, I went back to our car and took a nap. I felt a little guilty, but all those days on the road were catching up with me. When S returned, he was enthusiastic about his class. He said hed found the building and room with no problem, and was greeted by some students when he entered. They introduced themselves and talked with him. After a few minutes, a young black man entered the room dressed in jeans and a sports coat. One of the students looked up and said, Oh, Hi Charles! Charles returned his greeting and sat at the table. S noticed that he had a book and some notes, but he thought he was just a well-prepared student. Just after that erroneous conclusion, Charles began writing on the board and S realized he was the professor! S said he was a great teacher. The book being discussed was Freuds Civilizations and its Discontents. S is not a fan of Freud, but he said Charles made the lesson interesting, and it was the only class he attended during the visits with ALL of the students in the class contributing to the discussion. </p>
<p>During the tour with a fun, rather hyper senior, she explained that everyone from the president (Doug) to the students, to the faculty, to the lady serving lunch are called by their first names. She said this is part of the Quaker tradition. The AC later explained that in the Quaker faith, titles are not used because they separate people and put them on different levels. Maybe Mini can tell me if I have that right. I asked our guide whether everyone being on a first name basis ever caused problems with students inappropriately challenging professors. I wanted to understand whether a lack of barriers resulted in a lack of boundaries. I may not be expressing this very well, but I wonder whether students might try to take advantage of a presumed friendship based upon the first-name basis of the relationship, or whether they might believe their opinion holds the same weight as the professors knowledge of the subject matter (which could happen anywhere). For our guide, it didnt seem to be an issue. She seemed a little puzzled by my question, but she said the students know the professor is in charge of the class. The AC confirmed this, although she seemed even more confused by the question. Maybe it wasnt a valid concern or it isnt an issue because respect for others is a basic tenet of the Quaker faith. (Pie throwing! Yes I know and Im getting to it soon.)</p>
<p>Our tour guide was a double major, English and French, who was planning on teaching English in the French school system for her first job. I think she did a good job presenting the school, and representing the students. She had a bunch of jobs and assignments to complete, with the added pressure of being a senior who was due to graduate in May. That was the hyper part. She was also enthusiastic about graduation and served on the planning committee for the ceremonies. She said they were going to play Youre too Sexy as the faculty walks out during the graduation ceremonies. Apparently, the students had tried to eliminate Pomp and Circumstance from the proceedings, but she said they were effectively overruled. The students were told Look, thats the only traditional music you have left in the program. It has to stay. She seemed to have accepted that with good grace. I concluded that Earlham wasnt too bound by tradition. </p>
<p>That graduation music anecdote touches on something that is distinctive about Earlham. Consistent with the Quaker faith, all decisions on the campus are made by consensus. And the students have significant involvement in issues related to them. For example, students serve on the faculty review committees that make decisions about promotions, tenure, and terminations. I dont know if thats true at other colleges, but what seems different about Earlham is that students hold the same number of seats as the faculty/staff representatives: five students-five faculty/staff. The students seem to hold a lot of power, and I wondered whether it could be abused. It sounded like faculty retention and advancement could be even more of a popularity contest than it is at other schools. I know that grade grubbing and student evaluations are a significant concern among college faculty, even at the uberschools like Harvard. Based on reputation and my Ss experience in his class, Earlham appears to have a strong faculty. Maybe there are some checks and balances there I dont understand, or maybe the students are smart enough to know that good teachers challenge them and sometimes you learn even if you earn a poor grade. Im speculating, but I am curious.</p>
<p>(to be continued in the next post)</p>
<p>Okay, the PIE THROWING INCIDENT. Its in big capitals because its a big deal at Earlham. When I asked our guide about it, she went from hyper and funny to solemn and thoughtful in a short second. For those who dont know about it, a conservative speaker, William Kristol, was making an invited address on the Earlham campus a few weeks ago. An Earlham student threw a pie in his face during the presentation. (I later read a letter on a social concerns bulletin board that said Kristol received two standing ovations for continuing his presentation after the incident.) The student was suspended and may have been expelled. I think his fate still isnt settled. This incident has dominated much of the discussion on campus since then. I asked the AC too. She told us that they hold faculty/staff meetings every two weeks. The last two meetings have been completely devoted to this one topic. Remember, they have to make decisions by consensus. Our student guides sympathies seemed to be with the student by noting that his act could be defended as An act of protest against a public figure. That was one end of the spectrum, but she also said it could be viewed as an attack on free speech, intolerant, and a violation of Earlhams tenet of respect to others. All of the Earlham students do not agree about what the incident represents, or what should happen to the student. Whether they view it as protest or assault, none of them are comfortable with what happened. I suspect this incident may not have been as big a deal at some other places, but it is definitely a huge deal at Earlham. I think it touched the Earlham soul and theyre still struggling to figure it all out. </p>
<p>On a less dramatic and gloomy note, the senior student who escorted us to lunch was bright, interesting, and fun. He gave us his card with his professions: Social Change Activist, Member PBK, Tap Dancer. (Our other guide had also given us her card but she had a French quote from Ionesco Comme cest bizarre, curieux, etrange! Somebody will have to help us with that one). Students in the dining hall appeared to represent the range from quasi hippie to jock. I didnt see too many you could call preppie. Mostly they just seemed to be college students. One of the high school students at lunch was on a visit to determine where she was going in the fall. Shed already bought the Earlham hoodie, so her mother thinks shes made her decision. We were talking with our student escort about Earlhams traditions of consensus decisions, respect for others, tolerance, etc. Since he is graduating next month, the mom asked him how he thought hed be able to handle the real world since it isnt like Earlham. I thought he had the right response. He acknowledged that he thought of Earlham as a special place, different than other places. But he hoped that when he had a job and worked with others, or supervised others, that maybe he could introduce what he had learned at Earlham and make the real world a little more like Earlham. Thats probably the social change activist part of his card more than the tap dancer part. Actually, when I think about it, there could be a little tap dancing there too </p>
<p>As usual, this is getting too long. The afternoon turned out to be a bust for my S. He showed up for the scheduled class, but no one was there. He checked with the dept secretary and found out the professor was out of town and had cancelled class. He then waited for a different professor for his meeting, but she didnt show up in her office. I think he had been scheduled outside her normal office hours and she either forgot, or admissions didnt notify her. By that time, he had lost two hours or more. The admissions secretary was apologetic and said the professors dont tell them when their schedule changes. S was rather disappointed and a bit irritated. I advised him to try to not let it color his perceptions of Earlham too much. I have to admit I was a little concerned, but I prefer to believe this was the exception rather than the rule. We just need to remember our morning. </p>
<p>My S liked Earlham despite his frustration in the afternoon. On his mental list, he moved Earlham into a tie with Denison for third place, pushing ND down to fifth. Earlham reminded me of Oberlin, but without the edge and some of the intensity. It also doesnt have the Conservatory and Art museum that adds to Oberlins status and uniqueness. But Earlham has the Quaker heritage that seems to enhance the best of liberal thought rather than the radical aspects of it. At Earlham, I think a student can be an individual, be supported in their desire to change the world, but also learn how to work with others to make that happen. Im sure that can happen other places, but they seem to emphasize it at Earlham.</p>
<p>Your reviews continue to be fantastic! I guess you only have one left to go :)</p>
<p>Doddsdad, I had to laugh about your need for a nap when you reached Earlham. I felt the same way on our trip. I was exhausted by the time we made it home and we only saw 4 schools in a week! </p>
<p>Thank you for your great report on Earlham. I'm copying it for my daughter as we speak. Many of your impressions reaffirmed in my mind why Earlham is a good fit for my daughter. I personally would go crazy with all of the consensus decision making but my daughter finds that exciting and it does suit her personality.</p>
<p>Anyhow, you can get a job as a college reviewer if your base is closed!
What's left? Hanover!</p>
<p>Parents Forum: The actual treasure chest of CC
Parents Here: The Best People on CC.....:)</p>
<p>OK, so I am crazy. I have a kid in college at Millikin University (Decatur, IL) and another one that will probably end out at Univ of Michigan (How can you complain when the #5 Engineering school is 40 minutes down the road?) I have never even heard of must of the colleges you are visiting. But I am totally hooked on your review! I don't supposed I can convince my computer geek to change his mind and become an English major so I can visit those places . . .</p>
<p>Peg</p>
<p>Carolyn,
I'm glad it was helpful to you. I know you've helped us a lot in our search and visits. I really hope I don't have to find another job for the next 15-20 years, but visiting colleges for a living could be interesting. I only have two children though, and I think they'd quit on me. I can hear it now, "Dad, I'm a 30 year old Ph.D with a wife and baby. I don't have the time to visit Confidentialia College again!" Ungrateful pup! After all I've done for him.... It's not like he's employed or anything... Oops, daydream turned into nightmare. </p>
<p>Blip,
Thanks for your kind words here and on the Kenyon board. Who knows, maybe we'll see you at Kenyon next year.</p>
<p>I certainly hope so too!</p>
<p>Hanover! It was our last college and we had to leave by 1200 to make it to the airport in time for our evening flight. So we had a slightly rushed visit at Hanover. The visit coordinator created a compact schedule that included a class, a tour, meeting with a professor, and an interview all before noon! It was impressive scheduling and it actually worked, although it was a hurried interview. Hanover has a beautiful campus set on the high bluffs above the Ohio River. The main entrance (also referred to as the scenic entrance) is a road that winds through a forest on the edge of the bluffs until you arrive on campus next to Greek row. The campus buildings are consistently red-brick, primarily in a Georgian style that blend together pleasantly to my eye. It almost looks like they planned it that way. Hanover the college blends with Hanover the village. At least I think it was a village. We didnt drive through since we were driving the scenic route, so the village must not scenic. Madison is a town almost next door. The town-gown relationship is very strong. Madison is a historic city in IN who values Hanover College as its primary asset. The AC said the Madison mayor will sometimes ask, How are my students doing over there? Hanover the village doesnt have a mayor, so that supports its status as a village. About half of the Hanover faculty live on the campus. The students say they cant have pets, but the professors dogs and cats are friendly. </p>
<p>Everyone was very nice, friendly and they seemed pleased to have S visiting from overseas. Some of them were curious about how we knew about Hanover and managed to find it. I explained that we were originally from KY and I had known some Hanover graduates in the past who were good people. One of them attended Hanover while Woody Harrelson was there. She said he seemed to get lost in the smoke, or something like that. I dont think he graduated, so he probably suffered the fate of most school dropouts. (I didnt tell them the Woody Harrelson part) Even the dean of admissions came out and talked with us a few minutes, or maybe we were blocking his path to the coffee pot. Not really, he was welcoming us. I just remembered. The Kenyon dean greeted us too. (Please tell kclady I didnt forget)</p>
<p>With S off to class, I walked around to take pictures, but no naps this time. As I said, the campus is beautiful, but it looked a little ragged and needed the grass to be cut in some of the quads. Predictably, that occurred during our tour and when I was sitting outside trying to read a book. I dont know if the AC had extra time that morning or she liked us, but she talked with me for some time while S was in class. She had been a manager for a Fisher House at Travis AFB for a few years, and she knows the manager of the Fisher house here in Germany at Landstuhl Hospital. Fisher houses are military versions of Ronald McDonald houses. Im digressing again, but the point is that she was friendly, helpful, and soon started telling me about the merit aid opportunities at Hanover. How can you not like a college that tells you they may have money for your child? The merit aid scholarships for students with Ss stats were substantial, especially since Hanover COA is about $10,000 less per year than most of the colleges we had visited (Centre is the exception). In addition, they will stack some scholarships together to increase the package, rather than supplant smaller scholarships with larger (Centre tends to supplant). </p>
<p>Our tour guide was a senior who had an unusual double major: premed and studio art. She did a good job on the tour, especially since she had to shout over lawnmowers at times. Hanovers facilities appear to be in good shape and they have several newer buildings. The student center has recently been renovated and the students seemed to like it. We didnt go inside, but the athletic/wellness building looked impressive from the outside. My Ss biggest concern was that most of the dorms are not air-conditioned. Hanover wont allow the students to bring a window unit although a box fan is acceptable. I can tell you from considerable experience that the Ohio Valley can be hot and humid as early as late April, and through September. Our guide said they have one or two dorms with ac for students with health conditions, so Ss allergies might finally do him a favor. The academic buildings are air-conditioned and they are supposed to be working on upgrading the dorms soon, but I think students could be uncomfortable for a few weeks every year. Of course, that might inspire them to get out of bed and get to an ac classroom. Also, Hanover is on a 4-4-1 schedule with a May term. Most students study elsewhere in May, but many remain at Hanover for their class. Our guide said she didnt know if shed been accepted to medical school yet, but she seemed confident she would get in. She said she had been academically challenged at Hanover, and she had to study or read about three hours for every hour in the classroom for many classes. </p>
<p>That leads to our biggest concern about Hanover. My S attended one class and there with only four regular students. He didnt know if students were absent, or whether that was normal. The professor was presenting and discussing some information from a writers work which had not been part of the class reading assignment. S had recently read part of the piece in an AP class. He felt like he dominated the discussion and the other students were not particularly engaged. Of course, they were probably angry with the smart*** high school kid who was visiting, but he escaped unscathed. Our guide had said many students were at a conference making presentations, so maybe this was not the usual class, or they were tired from studying for finals the next week. Unfortunately, S was not impressed with the students in the class. He later met with a different professor who was engaging, challenging, and interesting to S. </p>
<p>Im going to cheat and give you a link to one of Curmudgeons threads with Icemaker giving a nice overview of Hanover. Ive also cut and pasted it below but I dont know how to put it in those nice boxes. I think Icemakers overview both alleviates and confirms my concerns at the same time. </p>
<p>Icemaker- Hanover overview</p>
<p>I know a little bit about Hanover, so maybe I can be a bit of help there. I am from Indiana and I have several friends who went to Hanover. </p>
<p>Academically, Hanover is a solid school and is strong in the sciences. The level of academic seriousness of the students is pretty wide ranging. Some students will be very serious about their education, while other students are likely to treat their time at Hanover as a four year cocktail party (that is, if they last the entire four years). The person I know who was an Econ major there complained that he felt there were too many students at Hanover who lacked an academic focus. However, the Chemistry major I know (and wife of the Econ major) had no such complaints and felt like the academics at Hanover were very strong. By the way, they both went onto grad school, live in Chicago and are doing quite well for themselves.</p>
<p>Hanover is also well known for putting together generous aid packages. Given your daughter's academic credentials, I bet that Hanover will offer her a ton of merit money. My guess is that out of all of the schools you have listed, Hanover will end up being the most affordable, if that is a factor.</p>
<p>While I have never personally been on the Hanover campus, in a rare moment of unanimity my parents indicated that the two most physically attractive campuses they ever visited were Hanover and Kenyon (my brother played D3 football and they went to virtually all of his games).</p>
<p>My impression is that if your daughter is as serious and self motivated as she appears to be, then she would likely get a fine education at Hanover.</p>
<p>Me again. I liked Hanover and my S liked it too. It's a very good college, and I believe S would receive a fine education there. But Im concerned about whether he will be consistently challenged academically. Im confident Curmudgeons daughter is serious and self-motivated but I dont know if that describes my son. Right now he wants to apply. Ill certainly support that, but Ill feel better if he can visit again and attend some more classes. Or maybe someone else like Icemaker will have experience with Hanover. Or maybe I can make a deal with Curmudgeon. We can both send our kids to Hanover and she can kick my S's butt if he tries to slack off. I'd have to get him to lend his boots to her though. Or maybe we can make the same deal for Centre... package deals...didn't you already doodle up this idea Curmudgeon? </p>
<p>So final ranking for S after the Grand Am Boogie</p>
<ol>
<li> Kenyon</li>
<li> Centre</li>
<li> Denison, Earlham, Hanover-he said he hasnt been able to favor one over the other. Interesting trio isnt it Carolyn?</li>
<li> Notre Dame</li>
<li> Vanderbilt</li>
<li> Oberlin</li>
</ol>
<p>He doesnt want to apply to Oberlin or Vandy, but hes considering the other six. I dont think his college search is closed, but this will be an excellent group for consideration. Any suggestions for further research?</p>
<p>Peg,
You're right. It would be hard to pass up a great school that close. I'm new to this, but I've learned that its not hard to find good colleges. It is harder to narrow the list. Maybe your computer geek could be a double major with English too. Somebody has to write the manuals, right?</p>