<p>“The public colleges are full of students who are working and paying their own way through school.”</p>
<p>A ridiculous assertion. There are lots of parents that could pay for private schools that send their kids to public schools because it is simply a more cost-effective solution for them.</p>
<p>That has certainly been the case in our area BCEagle91. There really has been no distinct trend socio-economically that would distinguish the average SUNY going student from those going to private colleges and universities. It has generally been an issue of family choice. I would say that, on average, those kids going to private schools have been somewhat stronger HS students and many are receiving merit/need-based aid that makes the cost of public vs. private much more equitable.</p>
<p>I thought the thread was about “The trouble with public colleges”. The list of graduation rate from Hawkette is mainly one of private institutions. 90% - Notre-Dame, 85% - Vanderbilt is not “outstanding” as far as I am concerned. At 50k a year the graduation rate should be 100%, especially since so much time and effort is put into creating the “perfect” class, year after year.</p>
<p>Hawkette’s data reflects the fact that very few public colleges come anywhere near graduating students in 4-years to the degree that many private schools do (contrary to what was asserted in an earlier post). Compared to a graduation of 100% (a fantasy) Vanderbilt’s 85% may not seem “outstanding,” but compared to the single and low double digit 4-year grad rates you find at some publics it is pretty impressive.</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification. So the spokeperson at Washington University in St Louis was somewhat misleading when she told us during the college visit back in Nov 2008, that a 4 years undergraduate graduation rate was a “guaranty at WASHU”.</p>
<p>calmom- I absolutely agree with you. I’ve had a similar discussion with another poster on the SUNY board. You will always find alot more non-traditional students at the public U’s. This may include those students who are a bit older, may have worked for a few years, or are balancing being a student and employed at the same time. This particular instance may be more evident at public U’s in urban areas like CUNY, SUNY Buffalo/Albany, Temple, George Mason etc.etc.</p>
<p>As I do know a bunch of SUNY students including my own kid, I too will state that most kids can easily graduate in the 4/5 year period. The SUNY system offers an array of winter/ summer session courses either on campus or on-line. These courses are available in the event one needs to take a particular course or two and it can’t fit in to your students regular schedule.<br>
My own kid added a minor in her junior year- so to ensure she will graduate next year, she will be taking one on-line SUNY course over the summer.<br>
I think alot of you are showing your age- many state systems do offer on line learning- and it can be useful for those who need an additional course or two to enable the student to graduate in the 4 year period.
I think those who have a distaste for the public university system, often do not have sufficient knowledge about how their state system works and what programs they have to offer.
And if your own state does not have on-line learning, I’m sure students can take a comparable summer course or two from another reputable state system.<br>
If a public U student WANTS to graduate in 4 years, there is little reason that they cannot obtain that goal.
If a kid changes major, transfers, decides to work and take less of a courseload, it is certainly a valid reason why it may take more than 4 years to graduate- but do not blame the Public U system for that.</p>
<p>marny1 – The number of non-traditional students at a given SUNY can vary a lot. Brockport, for example, seems to have a higher than normal percentage of commuters and older students. Geneseo, on the other hand, looks to be pretty typical of what you’d find at a private school. This is information that you can dig out in the Common Data Sets if they are posted.</p>
<p>I do agree with you that a public U student can graduate in 4 years if he or she really WANTS to, even if that means taking courses on-line or at another college. Public schools make the process more difficult, in my opinion, than their private counterparts, however.</p>
<p>eucalyptus,
I presented the 4-year Graduation data on both publics and privates in order to provide some context and comparison. I think that the comparison confirms that there are differences, particularly as it relates to the highest ranked group of privates. They have the institutional resources (read: money) to fund a lot of things that help students graduate at a faster-rate during the four-year window. At the top privates, there are deep pockets that provide gobs of financial aid and student assisting resources and a 100% level of financial support to all students will need. By comparison among the publics, only U Virginia and U North Carolina meet 100% of their students’ financial needs.</p>
<p>The Financial Top 25 National Unis for students from lower-income families </p>
<hr>
<p>Below are the national universities which are committed to meeting 100% of financial need for attending students who qualify. I have also included average size of these awards and the degree to which financial aid is awarded on these campuses.</p>
<p>% of Need Met, Avg Size of Financial Aid Package, % of undergrads on FA, National University</p>
<p>In the West:
100% , $ 34,600 , 43% , Stanford
100% , $ 32,720 , 40% , USC
100% , $ 29,533 , 53% , Caltech</p>
<p>In the Midwest:
100% , $ 32,239 , 44% , U Chicago
100% , $ 30,285 , 47% , Notre Dame
100% , $ 28,725 , 42% , Wash U
100% , $ 27,936 , 42% , Northwestern</p>
<p>In the South/Southwest:
100% , $ 36,257 , 41% , Vanderbilt
100% , $ 31,014 , 39% , Duke
100% , $ 29,143 , 38% , Emory
100% , $ 23,529 , 34% , Rice
100% , $ 17,492 , 27% , U VIRGINIA (public)
100% , $ 11,796 , 33% , U NORTH CAROLINA (public)</p>
<p>In the Northeast/East:
100% , $ 35,831 , 52% , Harvard
100% , $ 34,744 , 43% , Yale
100% , $ 34,195 , 41% , Cornell
100% , $ 33,289 , 52% , Dartmouth
100% , $ 33,064 , 47% , Columbia
100% , $ 32,866 , 63% , MIT
100% , $ 32,160 , 53% , Princeton
100% , $ 31,820 , 42% , U Penn
100% , $ 30,588 , 43% , Brown
100% , $ 29,600 , 40% , Georgetown
100% , $ 27,828 , 38% , Tufts
100% , $ 27,395 , 41% , Boston Coll</p>
<p>hudson- Brockport’s proximity to Rochester may help explain why it has a higher % of non traditional students than Geneseo, which is probably alot more rural than Brockport.
Spend some time on the SUNY website and check out the on-line learning link.
You may be pleasantly surprised.
And if my own kid was spending her last semester on cortland campus, she definitely would have been able to get all her required courses within the 4 year span. Her last semester will be an off campus internship-so she will have one less semester to fit in all requirements.<br>
Personally, I think many state U systems have much more to offer than the traditional 4 year private institution. But that is just my opinion.</p>
<p>hawkette, please provide the source of your data.</p>
<p>State U’s frequently have the advantage of size so that there are a lot of course offerings but the problem is with some departments that get funding cuts. I’ve seen it in our son’s school this semester with professors taking on heavier teaching loads. I’ve noticed it for the Fall semester in the form of fewer senior courses offered. So the funding issue is having an effect on options. Small departments may have to worry more than large departments.</p>
<p>I’m thinking down the road a few years if we don’t have a recovery in jobs and states have to continue cutting and therefore raising tuition. At some point you start pushing more and more full-pay customers to private schools.</p>
<p>No surprise there marny1. I was approached about teaching some online courses for SUNY after I retired. But I agree it is worth checking out.</p>
<p>I think there are a lot of variables, including at the more selective schools, the kids are coming in with some AP credits.</p>
<p>kayf – I think they are coming into the publics with a some, and in some cases a lot, of AP credits also. It is also easier to get credit for APs, at least at most of the SUNYs, than it may be at the selective privates. Most of the SUNYs require a 3 on the AP exams, whereas a 4 or 5 were required (except for calculus) at the private colleges my daughter applied to.</p>
<p>I was distinguishing more selective v. less selective, not public v. private.</p>
<p>I think I would answer the same way, as there is no direct correlation in this area between taking AP courses and selectivity of schools one applies to. I can see how one might have a different perspective, however, if one lives in an area where participation in AP courses is tightly rationed. In the high school my daughter’s best friend attended you had to have a certain GPA AND take a qualifying test to gain entry into an AP class. This pretty much guaranteed that only the cream of the crop took APs – the most likely group to apply to highly selective privates. Up here in the country they are less restrictive and the kids who take APs are just as likely to apply to SUNY Oneonta or Hartwick as they are to Middlebury or Cornell.</p>
<p>“as there is no direct correlation in this area between taking AP courses and selectivity of schools one applies to” - huh</p>
<p>In my D’s HS, AP classes are pretty much open – by that self-selection. But the GCs caution kids there has to be a balance between grades and AP classes. So even though open, the kids going to even moderately selective schools tend not to take so many.</p>
<p>hudson- I believe most professors who teach suny on-line courses are affiliated with a particular state university campus. I believe teaching the on-line course is in addition to their regular teaching responsibilities on campus.</p>
<p>The main exception may be Empire College which is solely an on line degree program. You may not need the suny campus affiliation to teach through empire college. I believe CUNY also has an on-line degree program- it’s called school of professional studies (or something like that). I really played detective these last few weeks to find one on-line course that would fit my kids program, so she’d be able to get the credit and graduate on time.
Luckily- her cortland advisor helped her out and she is able to take an online class from another SUNY campus (the professor is affiliated with another suny campus).</p>
<p>marny1 – You are correct. Empire State College does not require affiliation to a specific SUNY. This is the online college that spoke to me. I have several friends who were distance learning faculty; both got involved when they were raising families and were able to work out of the home. When one friend took a position as an administrator with ESC she contacted me about a couple openings they had.</p>
<p>“Financial aid meeting 100% of need” can be a very misleading term. Only a tiny handful of elite colleges meet 100% of need with grant aid. Most also rely on loans and work/study—both essentially forms of self-help. The more relevant point of comparison is net cost of attendance after grant aid, whether the grants are need-based or merit-based. On that basis, public universities are highly competitive with even “100% of need” privates for many students, and substantially cheaper for some. </p>
<p>Most public universities, with larger enrollments, don’t have enough federal work/study money to go around. But part-time non-work/study jobs tend to be abundant on and around bigger campuses, and many students hold part-time jobs that are not federally subsidized and therefore not counted as “financial aid.” What’s the difference between the student earning $4,000 per year in a federally subsidized work/study job and the student earning $4,000 per year in a non-subsidized non-work/study job? From the student’s point of view, very little, except that the work/study job is “guaranteed”—but once you have the non-work/study job, that difference becomes meaningless. From the institution’s point of view, it gets to count the $4,000 in work/study money as part of its “generous” financial aid award, counting towards meeting 100% of the student’s need—with federal taxpayers picking up 70% of the tab. But the $4,000 earned by the non-work/study student doesn’t count as financial aid, and doesn’t count towards meeting the student’s calculated need—even though it costs the school more hard cash to provide that job than the federally subsidized work/study job.</p>