<p>Brian,
It was me who talked to your wife - I wish I hadn't been so rushed for time and could have chatted longer.</p>
<p>I actually appreciate your son giving me the opportunity to clarify. I should have made it more clear at the Q&A and I know to do that next time. It's difficult to improve without feedback and criticism and now I have information that I can use to address weaknesses. Thank you :-)</p>
<p>Michele</p>
<p>ISWACT, my son also was attracted to a monologue from Trestle at Pope Lick Creek, but the drama teacher at his high school recommended against it--more, I think, because she felt that he didn't have time to prepare properly rather than the edginess of the material, but I don't know for sure. If it's a piece that you really like and can relate to, I hope that audition judges will appreciate that quality in your performance, whatever the actual content. (Disclaimer: I am another parent without theater experience or knowledge.)</p>
<p>ALL4FSU, the reason for no callbacks on the January date was indeed stated during the Q&A session, but we still regretted missing out on the December audition session (it seemed like "first choice" day). Various disheartening rumors and whispers floated about the room as we waited, but my son and I decided to just hope that you all wouldn't waste an afternoon on us for no reason! Also, having current BFA students in attendance helped a lot to clear up our questions and give us a better feel for the process. I very much appreciated that one of the young men initiated a conversation, since my son was pretty tense and probably would not have approached any of them otherwise. </p>
<p>BTW, to ISWACT and everyone else on their way to Unifieds in Chicago: best of luck to you all! Hope the experience is intense, exciting, rewarding, and not too exhausting.</p>
<p>Just wanted to inject a comment, or two, in here in the BFA/BA discussion. It's important to keep in mind that there are many paths to being a working actor. MANY, if not most, professional actors who work regularly do not have a BFA. This is a precarious, crazy business and there is no guaranteed way to achieve success. If a student goes the BA route, they certainly can pursue an MFA at some point, but it isn't necessary, and, in fact, is quite rare in the acting world. </p>
<p>There are many choices to make in determining where your kid wants to apply and to what kind of program. In any of these, they have the opportunity to still pursue their dream of being a working actor. They also would have the opportunity if they chose not to attend college at all, not that I'm recommending that route. I think that an education is very important for all kids, regardless of what profession they hope to pursue. One more comment on the BFA/BA issue, your kid can get a well-rounded education within some BFA programs, if they want to do so. Not all BFA programs are strictly theatre.</p>
<p>Lastly, I could list probably dozens of names of actors we know who do not have a BFA but who have been successful but one that pops into mind because I heard from his mom this week is Sebastian Arcelus who is a Williams grad in Poli/Sci. He is the new Bob Gaudio in Jersey Boys, moving over from playing Fiyero in Wicked. He's had a great career already in his young life!</p>
<p>And my D's friend who is playing Bob Gaudio on the Jersey Boys tour went to a BFA program for one year and chose to leave and that's all the schooling he's had (he didn't even attend regular high school either). Her friend playing Mark on the RENT tour has a BA in Theater and Classics at Brown. I agree with AlwaysAMom that a person should pursue the kind of schooling they want but many of these paths lead to working as a professional actor. A BFA is not the only one. As mentioned before, my D has many friends who have opted to pursue a BA rather than a BFA even though they are competitive to get into top BFA schools or in some cases, turned them down. My daughter has many friends who have won NFAA awards for musical or straight theater who opted for BAs. One just was a finalist (top award) in MT for NFAA and I know her first choice schools are top BA ones, not BFA ones (though she is quite competitive for BFA ones). </p>
<p>I also agree that at CERTAIN BFA schools, one can get a fair amount of liberal arts or even double major or minor in something else. This is true at my daughter's school, NYU/Tisch (where AlwaysAMom's daughter graduated and had a double major with her BFA).</p>
<p>
[quote]
In my opinion, if you want to do a BA in Drama where you can double major, do the BA at a fine college with an excellent theater department and not at a school that ALSO has a BFA in Drama.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Although he doesn't plan to double-major, my son is applying to a small LAC (recommended by the drama teacher at his HS) with a well-regarded theater department that offers both BA and BFA programs. Their policy is to enter all students as BA candidates initially and then have them audition for BFA slots during the second semester of their freshman year. The auditions they hold for prospective students are for scholarships only. We haven't actually visited yet and don't have a feel for whether or not one program plays "second fiddle" to the other (or what kind of questions to ask to find out--I assume any college would want to defend the programs it offers). This approach seems sane and reasonable and appealing to me, but I wonder if there are issues I'm not thinking about. Anyone else apply or visit a school with this sort of policy?</p>
<p>A-Polly: This note is for anyone in the southeast, and elsewhere, who may see a lack of representation by southern LACs on CC Drama. A-Polly: I sent you a private message. Tulane does what you are describing, but I am not sure that I would call it a small LAC. When I think of small southeastern LACs with a quality drama-writing programs I think of Sewannee, perhaps the prettiest and classiest campus in the country (also known as the University of the South - publishes the famous Sewannee Review and summer writing conference - see recent theatre trade magazine). Centre College also has a great drama program with sizable drama scholarships. Catawba is another, popular. They have a BFA/BA, while retaining a classical LAC philosophy.
If we want to start a debate, we might ask/answer 'what exactly is a small classical LAC?' I would suggest that there is a substantial difference between a large private/public university - that has core/foundational curriculum requirements, distribution requirements (across all regions of knowledge production), capstone/senior requirements, and major/minor requirements (with a double-major as an option) - and a small LAC like Sewanee, Rhodes, Muhlenberg, Vassar, Beloit, etc. Yes, Syracuse, BU, NYU, Duke, Vanderbilt, Southern Methodist, and the land grant universities require liberal arts courses, but, as the Carnegie Commission on Education outlines, there is a difference between national private/public universities, comprehensive colleges, and liberal arts colleges - USWN draws from the Carnegie classifications, though I am not sure they know why. The difference is hard to pinpoint. Obviously 'size' is a distinguishing feature, but it's more than that. Space does not allow for all that could be said here. Some kids are not cut out for a small LAC, especially if the school is geographically isolated (Washington & Lee, Sewanee, Bennington, Skidmore, Bard, Cornell College), but there are others that may be surprised as to how stimulating and innovative a small, cloistered learning community can be. When we started our search we tried to find small, cloistered LACs with a BFA option. There are few (I would rather others suggest this list, though I could).
Obviosly, like many of you, we have auditioned with large private/public universities, but I wish there were more small LACs with BFA or quasi-BFA (more conservatory like; less 'history of theatre I-IV', with a 10 course ceiling) programs.</p>
<p>A student could attend a school like Vassar, Wesleyan, Amherst, Smith, or Sarah Lawrence with an open curriculum and take what they want and as much of their area of interest that they want. (this is also true of Brown but Brown is not a LAC)</p>
<p>I would add Bennington (not the reputation of the first four). For example, my S could take Meisner I and II, then a acting methods course beased on XXX(forget the name - also big at Bard), then this or that course on acting - as many as a number of BFA programs. He could then add three or more courses on directing, three on screenwriting, and in the process, write, direct, and stage plays - they encourage collaborative work for credit (graded or narrative feedback). Are all of the productions polished? No; I've seen some of them on youtube. At this point, Bennington gets the kids rejected from some of the schools soozievt mentions. Oh yea,I forgot, my S can take dancing courses in a program built by Martha Graham.They do not tenure professors and they hire professors that have lots of real world experience, who have demonstrated a talent for innovative teaching. Lots of them live on campus. Bennington has the second or third lowest student-teacher ratio in the country. Their endowment has been low, but they recently secured some huge contributions. It will likely regain its 1930s, 1960s status. It's not for everyone, so the college requires lengthy interviews - these are intense; my son has his second the Sunday after Unifieds.
Ideally, Bennington wants to see a student integrate a variety of studies, for example, drama/writing/directing with one/two other areas of study (i.e., political science, astronomy - great at Bennington because no urban-light pollution).
To get in, my son had to write a long paper - beyond the two essays required by the Common Application: create a college course integrating at least two areas of study, including course description, required readings, assignments, etc. Explain what life experiences led you to develop the course. That's what I define as an innovative admissions essay.
Granted, my S wants to get into a B+/A- on up BFA program, but Bennington is very tempting, and he would be happy there if rejected by Rutgers, FSU, Syracuse, Guthrie, DePaul, Otterbein (a small LAC option), Evansville, etc.
A lot of the colleges that I listed above are for bright students who do not have the HS credentials to get into Williams, Amherst Smith, or Vassar, or any of the top-25 LACs. My son does not have the stats. Hell, I didn't have the stats either - a local third-tier state school said they could get me in if I played football for them. I've never been a prof at a college that would have accepted me out of HS. Come to think of it, my wife would have never gotten into the three universities that she's been a prof at. God did not design everybody to intellectually peak in grades 9-11, though the existing search and selection system falsely assumes such a divine plan. Praise god that the predictive validity of HS GPA and SAT (should be banned) is so weak.</p>
<p>briansteffy-I always really appreciate your take on things (especially Bennington :-) I would hate to see you leave these boards!</p>
<p>
[quote]
If a student goes the BA route, they certainly can pursue an MFA at some point, but it isn't necessary, and, in fact, is quite rare in the acting world.
[/quote]
Quite rare? I believe there are actually more MFA programs than BFAs and, from having looked over the company bios for most of the major regional theatres in the US, the MFA seems to be far and away the dominant degree. It's definitely not rare. </p>
<p>Also, professional training might not be necessary for a prodigy, but there's still way too much most actors need to learn to rely on what one can gain from most BA programs. Of course, that's not to say that great training can't come from someplace outside of academia and there are exceptions to any rule. After all, Ben Kingsley was turned away from RADA for being too good (!!!) and was set up with a professional apprenticeship by RADA's head of acting. However, I think it's safe to say people that gifted are so statistically insignificant as to be not worth discussing. </p>
<p>
[quote]
He is the new Bob Gaudio in Jersey Boys, moving over from playing Fiyero in Wicked.
[/quote]
[quote]
And my D's friend who is playing Bob Gaudio on the Jersey Boys tour went to a BFA program for one year and chose to leave and that's all the schooling he's had (he didn't even attend regular high school either). Her friend playing Mark on the RENT tour has a BA in Theater and Classics at Brown.
[/quote]
You MT moms crack me up! A jukebox musical? Are you kidding me? </p>
<p>It would be interesting to do a full run-down on the casts of all the straight plays running on Broadway. I wish I had the time, but I don't. However, here's one ... Let's see ... </p>
<p>Cyrano de Bergerac Just closed, I know ...
Cyrano - Kevin Kline - BFA, Juilliard
Roxane - Jennifer Garner - BFA, Dennison University
Christian - Daniel Sunjata - BFA, U.Southwestern Louisiana; MFA NYU/Tisch
Ligniere - Euan Morton - Mountview Conservatory of Performing Arts (UK)
Ragueneau - Max Baker - BA, Southeastern Oklahoma State U.; MFA, Wayne State U.
Comte - Chris Sarandon - BA Speech, West Virginia U.; MFA, Catholic University
Le Bret - John Douglas Thompson - Trinity Rep Conservatory (four years before they started the MFA with Brown)
Roxane's Duenna - Concetta Tomei - BFA, DePaul/Goodman Theatre
Can't find bios for the rest ...</p>
<p>Just off the top of my head, there is one CC alum currently on Broadway. That would be Annabelera who finished Juilliard last spring. :) As for BAs, there is a young actor with a BA from Yale playing in "Come Back Little Sheba." Zoe Kazan ... Looks like she came from an entertainment family, though. Betcha she had a lot of training both before and since she went to Yale. :)</p>
<p>Then there are all the Tony Nominees ... <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/191291-where-2006-tony-nominees-went-school-not.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/191291-where-2006-tony-nominees-went-school-not.html</a> Notice the trends for younger actors in this part... <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2433234-post33.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2433234-post33.html</a> Lotsa MFAs there for the straight theatre folks. :) </p>
<p>But ... No use wasting time rebutting the deluge of words soon to ensue ... People are gonna do what they're gonna do and most won't ever make a dime as actors no matter where they go to school. </p>
<p>Soooo kiddies ... All I'm gonna say is that if you think you're really talented enough to be ready to make your living as an actor through the four or so acting classes, one voice & speech class, and one movement class offered by most BA schools, have at it. Who am I to tell you you're probably not?</p>
<p>fishbowl, I'm glad to provide you with some amusement. Perhaps when you're my age and you've had the experience I've had, (and I hope, for your sake, that you become as familiar with the theatre community and professional actors as I am), you might actually be prepared to engage in a discussion without feeling the need, and taking such pleasure in denigrating the opinion and experiences of others.</p>
<p>fishbowl: thanks for your insights, and many thanks for being bold; we need more bold discourse, even if it's later tamed. While one may not want to make a mistatement in an interview, the beauty of CC is that mistatements/misinterpretations can be made with no harm done; best to error, rather than feel constrained. The fact that admissions people watch and talk here complicates things, but they likely understand.
When I encourage my S to look at BA programs, it's because he may be better off getting more experience- not polished productions, but experience, bad and good - before moving onto an MFA. College is all about making mistakes and learning from them. If we professionalize the 4 year experience, we are curtailing imagination and creativity. Some may disagree, but I care much less about whether Muhlenberg or NCSA, or xyz had a great production, than whether the students get plenty of opportunity and expoure. Admittedly, I am naive, but, as an athlete, I have seen how the professionalization of college sports (even HS sports) has taken the soul out of sport. Therefore I feel fortunate that we can save his college savings (BA or BFA, thru tuition exchange) for a Grad degree. Taxguy's threads about going into debt for a fine arts degree should be read by everyone.
Fishbowl,I particularly appreciate your discussion about the need for 'time' (my interpretation of what you said). I have never been an actor, though I know what good and bad acting looks like. Acting/witing/directing is a craft, in the glorious sense of that term. Like a quarterback or running back, the person has to have some raw talent. But even if the raw talent is there (with exceptions), it needs time to develop. Sorry for the sports analogy - am I the only guy around here, but a quarterback may be able to throw a ball 60 yards with sufficient velocity, but he must take the time to develop all of the other requirements to make it possible for the raw talent to get past the HS level, let alone, past the college level.
My son has been playing this acting game for little over a year, a very short time. I have no idea whether he has raw talent. All that I know is that he does not have the bad habits that kids get when they've been playing the game a long time as kids. But, assuming there is enough there to work with, we know that he will need more than 4 years to develop his craft (perhaps truer for straight acting kids than MT kids). Sure, if there is a fight scene (sword, knife, fist, tumble) that needs an athletic good looking guy who looks lush with his shirt off, my S will be type casted, but that's not what we are after.
So when I talk about BA programs, I am thinking BA-to-MFA. I see some BA programs as better than others in preparing a student for an MFA. Similarly, there are B+/A-/A BFA programs that are geared toward moving onto a MFA (i.e., Evansville is up-front about this, and if you spend the time reading BFA alumni newsletters, etc., it is surprising how many go on to get their MFA - and they are not the ones who post a long resume of theatrical productions).
On the other hand, when I sit day after day, surfing the 'on-demand' options, and then look where they graduated from (I was on sick leave), I was struck by the number of film actors that came out of national universities (BA) and top-ranked LACs (BA). I have no idea whether these observations generalize to generation-Xers and before. (anyone looking for a dissertation topic in theatre?). And I assume that these findings do not generalize to the stage, particularly serious theatre. The difference in career paths between stage and film - and their 'business' - is worthy of a long dedicated thread.
I would love to hear some commentary on these issues. These are real 'crunch-time' issues for some of us - we may not have options, but some of you will.
By the way, these issues are similar - well, sort of; how many BFAers and MFAers are able to make a sustained living in theatre - to those that I hear on a regular basis; is it woth while getting an MBA? Are MBAs more successful than BAs in business? Should I get a BA in business and then an MBA. Is it worth it? Do MBA programs prefer students who majored in business, or would they prefer a philosophy (perhaps theatre) major. The only answer to these questions that I am certain about is; yes, MBA programs prefer a theatre major with organizational experience over a marketing BA with the same organizational experience (there are always exceptions).</p>
<p>Briansteffy, yes, I agree that many colleges (not just southern) are either under-represented or don't show up at all on College Confidential, much less on the CC Drama discussions. I have appreciated your research and reporting on places such as the University of Wyoming that are truly under the CC radar. Interesting, I hadn't considered that there is of course a specific way to define small LAC, and some places that I had in my mind are not in that category (for instance, Elon, actually a private university with around 5000 students, vs. Sewanee, a true small LAC even though the word university is also in its name). There might be more general CC activity about Sewanee: The University of the South if it were not listed under T. S or even U would make a lot more sense.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some kids are not cut out for a small LAC, especially if the school is geographically isolated (Washington & Lee, Sewanee, Bennington, Skidmore, Bard, Cornell College), but there are others that may be surprised as to how stimulating and innovative a small, cloistered learning community can be.
[/quote]
I absolutely agree. Sewanee has been a wonderful experience for my elder son who is a sophomore there (not a drama major, but the quintessential liberal arts kid). </p>
<p>I also think Bennington sounds great. Son #1 was enthusiastic about applying but changed his mind abruptly, and I don't recall any particular reason (but he now admits that he was unnecessarily close-minded about many schools). We really liked their application process though (and--OT comment because I'm a graphic designer by trade--their application materials were beautifully designed).</p>
<p>The great variety of educational experiences in the resum</p>
<p>
[quote]
thanks for your insights, and many thanks for being bold; we need more bold discourse
[/quote]
Bold is my middle name ... well ... bowl? ;) I do get carried away when I write on message boards, so sorry to anyone who thought I was denigrating their opinions. There seem to be many factions within the "theatre community" and the denizens I know must be from a different neighborhood than alwaysamom's. Couldn't help taking a shot at jukebox musicals, though ... Then perhaps I'm like a pet taking on the personalities of its masters. I thought of using one of my teacher's favorites, "sauteed in wrong sauce," but thought better of it. LOL Nothing personal ... to anyone.
[quote]
When I encourage my S to look at BA programs, it's because he may be better off getting more experience- not polished productions, but experience, bad and good - before moving onto an MFA. College is all about making mistakes and learning from them. If we professionalize the 4 year experience, we are curtailing imagination and creativity.
[/quote]
I disagree with the premise that professionalizing the four year experience curtails imagination and creativity ... at least for acting. Good actor training by design opens up your creative being to levels you would have otherwise never known existed. At least that's my experience. It's also a fairly self contained liberal arts education in and of itself. I think Doctorjohn one time said something to the effect that by building those characters and playing those scenes, one is in effect studying history, poli sci, psychology, etc. "from the inside." Now whether that should take place on the undergraduate, graduate, or completely non-academic level depends entirely on the individual actor. </p>
<p>I do very much agree that you shouldn't put too much stock in polished or unpolished productions. Some schools pretty much typecast all their shows and spend months making them shine with very little artistic independence being allowed to the actors. Then there are others, like mine, that intentionally cast students in roles that are completely unnatural for them as a stretch to make of them what they can. Talk about a time for making mistakes ... But ... If you're not failing, you're probaby not growing, either. Actually, that's a problem I had first year. I'd give the teachers exactly what I thought they wanted and ended up being admonished to "stop being such a good student!" I've failed a lot since then and am all the better for it. Oh, Lord, the limbs I've crawled out on ...</p>
<p>Oh, and I like the sports analogy - especially since it's Superbowl weekend. But, yeah ... You're right on about the need to spend a lot of time developing those skills if your goal is to be the best actor you can be. Really, the way I see it, that's the only thing you have control over in the realm of having a career or not. It's not like Tom Brady does what he does purely off natural talent. If it were all about that, all those other quarterbacks that were picked ahead of him would be the ones kicking butt. Aren't a lot of those guys out of football now? </p>
<p>As for the film actors ... Yes there certainly are a lot who have BA degrees or no degree at all, but most of the good ones still got some other training although it might not have been in an academic setting. On the other hand, most of the ones whose body of work I really admire - i.e. they've for the most part avoided being typed - tend to be classically trained whether it be through an MFA, a BFA or some foreign equivalent.</p>
<p>Meh ... It's time to go out.</p>
<p>Any thoughts/opinions of the program at Northern Colorado in Greely?</p>
<p>A friend of my D's went there for a few years before leaving to pursue MT and acting professionally.</p>
<p>Fishbowl: You are a dedicated actor. My S BELIEVES he wants to become an actor, but a part of him continues to think he might like to be a toy designer/nanotechnology specialist/other form of mechanical engineer. I don't want to pre-program him the way I was by my well-intentioned parents. My S doesn't yet truly have a passion for acting as he has not had enough opportunity or experience. For a kid like him, I think that a BFA program, even assuming he could get accepted to one, is a mistake. A BA program that permits him to explore his choice of career but assures that he has the possibility of changing his mind or pursuing another path in graduate school. I hope that he has applied to BA programs that will give him good fundamentals if he wishes to stay with acting, but that will also allow him flexibility if he needs it. How many of us truly know what we want to do with our lives at 17? I am significantly older and still haven't been able to make that decision!
More power to you, Fishbowl, if you've been able to recognize your dreams at so tender an age.</p>
<p>^ LOL I sorta fell into acting by accident, but long story ... </p>
<p>From what you've said, a BA might be the best choice for your son. He can always follow it up with grad school later. One advantage is that as a BA Theatre major, he could potentially find his real passion in some other area of theatre besides acting. With the skills and interests you've mentioned, that could be in design/tech. They tend to work a lot steadier than actors and have every bit as much passion for what they do. I know some really amazing artists in that area.</p>
<p>I hope nobody interprets me as somehow casting aspersion on getting a BA. I'm personally getting a conservatory BFA and it is the right choice for me, but I definitely recognize that there would be drawbacks to taking that path for many. Perhaps even most. My only point is that additional training will generally be needed if you get a BA. Then, that seems to be the case for most career paths.</p>
<p>My S was just accepted to University of Wisconsin - Madison which is one of his top choices. The school seems to have a very broad-based BA in Theater and Drama with a concentration in Acting that appears to have some tough and demanding requirements. Does anyone have any particular knowledge about this program?</p>
<p>We're very excited - U of W is an excellent school, highly regarded. For example, all the recent discoveries concerning the use of skin cells to become stem cells come from their lab. This school will give my S all the options he is looking for, so even if he doesn't get admitted to his first or second choice schools, he's sure to get a fine education and to have a terrific college experience.</p>
<p>Thanks for all your support out there!</p>
<p>Congrats to your son, Frenchlaw! That's wonderful news.</p>