(Things got out of hand, I really need a UVa admit letter)

<p>This has been blown out of proportion; just follow mollypocket's suggestions.</p>

<p>2by2:
IMHO, your first post was a good one! It reminds me of that age old yet timeless teaching that goes "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much." </p>

<p>Hazelorb:
I applaud your willingness to take a stand regarding the importance of telling the truth in matters both large AND small. It reminds me of this true story that deals with that very issue.</p>

<p>"In a certain bank there was a Trust Department in which four young men and one older man were employed. The Directors decided to promote the older employee and then give one of the younger men his place as head of the Trust Department.</p>

<p>After considering the merits of each young man, the Directors selected one of them for the new position and gave him a substantial increase in salary. They decided to notify him of the promotion that afternoon at four o'clock.</p>

<p>During the noon hour the young man went to a cafeteria for lunch. One of the Directors was behind him in line, with several other customers between them. The Director saw the young man select his food, including a piece of butter. He proceeded to hide the butter under other food and lied to the cashier about what was on his plate.</p>

<p>That afternoon the Directors notified the young man that they had intended to give him a promotion, but because of what had been seen in the cafeteria, they would have to discharge him instead. They could not have someone who would lie and steal as the head of their Trust Department."</p>

<p>Mollypockets:
Haha to your advice that "once you start lying, it's best to stick with it.
They say honesty is the best policy, and I'm sure it is if you stick to it consistently. But sometimes you get yourself into a jam that you can only lie your way out of."</p>

<p>IMO, honesty is the best policy. Period. Lying to cover your tracks or to "work your way out of a jam" is a character flaw that will limit your ability to realize your full potential. It's an easy trap to fall into, but a tough one to get out of. I don't say that to moralize, but rather, as one who has fought that battle and won.</p>

<p>Trackstar23:
I implore you to take responsibility for your actions. Your problem isn't your overbearing neighbor who is nostalgic for the good old days at UVA. It's how you chose to respond to her suggestions that you apply, and her questions about whether you got in. Just 'fess up. Tell her that, at the last minute, you decided not to apply, and that you were ashamed to admit that to her. As I said before, she will respect you for telling the truth, and you'll feel much better about yourself, and how you concluded the situation with her.</p>

<p>Please trust me on that one. No haha.</p>

<p>Perhaps she wants to see the letter because she doesn't believe that you actually got in...or that you even got a letter. In which case, she would be right, and don't be surprised if she calls you on it tomorrow!! Then, all you have to say is, "Look, I'm sorry, but I felt so pressured to live up to your expectations that I lied. To be honest, I never wanted to go to UVA and thought that it would hurt your feelings, as an alumnus, to tell you. So, please accept my apology and now I'd like to focus my excitement about the fact that I WILL be attending university X." </p>

<p>Continuing to lie... is not so good. As a wise person once told me when I was in a situation like this, "oh what a tangled web we weave!!"
Mal :)</p>

<p>You made a mistake, but remember that what you choose to do with your future is your own business and you shouldn't have to validate that to anyone. College admissions is one of most stressful things you do as a young adult because, in a way, you're putting yourself up to be evaluated as a whole. This is personal and you shouldn't have to prove to your neighbor that your choice is right. You every right to tell him or her "back off."</p>

<p>Your telling a lie, to avoid temporary embarrasment, is not a sin. However, to seek opinion/advice on how to "manage it", is simply sad. Trust me, all the posters who are advising you to spin a story, may not be doing a favor to you. On the contrary, in my honest opinion, such an act would remain in your subconcious mind for ever! Everytime, you meet that person in future, it will remind you of the "lie". Do you want to carry that burden? </p>

<p>The decision is yours.</p>

<p>this is ridiculous. of course you lie, and yes you will get out of it unscathed. spare us your sanctimonious "advice" hopefulhoodad. </p>

<p>in my opinion, you will have to make many "messy" decisions in your life, and the line will not always be obvious. This is easy compared to those decisions. I would suggest that the ability to squirm and spin your way out of trouble is a far more valuable skill than being 100% honest all the time, no matter the situation. You need to consider the path of least resistance.</p>

<p>"I would suggest that the ability to squirm and spin your way out of trouble is a far more valuable skill than being 100% honest all the time, no matter the situation. You need to consider the path of least resistance."</p>

<p>Bigdirs: I hope your statement doesn't reflect the ethics instruction UVA profs in McIntire are dispensing to Commerce students these days. I would hope that individuals who aspire to be our nation's future business leaders, especially those who graduate from the University, would hold themselves to a higher ethical standard than what you espouse in your post. Someone who would choose the path of least resistance in a situation as simple and clearcut as this one will be overwhelmed and ill-prepared to handle the more complicated, really "messy" decisions you will face when you leave Mr. Jefferson's hallowed halls.</p>

<p>Squirming, spinning and lying your way through life in your personal and professional relationships is a slippery slope that rarely leads to greatness in life. Rather, it will lead to disappointment and mediocrity. Habitual and careless disregard for being truthful in one's dealings lays a cornerstone for failure, not success, on both Wall Street and Main Street.</p>

<p>Since you consider my advice sanctimonious, let me refer you to Stephen Covey, a renound and well respected business advisor and author. Dr. Covey has helped many, many clients and readers attain professional success and personal fulfillment by teaching them principles for living that stress fairness, integrity, honesty and human dignity. Here is what Dr. Covey says about the importance of the habits we practice in our daily lives.</p>

<p>"Our character, basically, is a composite of our habits. Because they are consistent, often unconscious patterns, they constantly, daily, express our effectiveness ... or ineffectiveness."</p>

<p>"Don't argue for other people's weaknesses. Don't argue for your own. When you make a mistake, admit it, correct it, and learn from it -- immediately."</p>

<p>And finally, "As a principle-centered person, you try to stand apart from the emotion of the situation and from other factors that would act on you, and evaluate your options. Looking at the balanced whole ... you'll try to come up with the best solution, taking all factors into consideration."</p>

<p>His advice sounds like a far cry from yours: "Of course you lie, and yes, you will get out of it unscathed." ... "You need to consider the path of least resistance." You might consider his advice sanctimonious as well, but it's still succinct, straight-forward and sound. And it leads to successful outcomes, and a life well lived.</p>

<p>Trackstar23:
Take the high road. It's the best road. It's the road with the better view. You'll never be disappointed with the results, or disgusted with yourself, if you're "100% honest all the time, no matter the situation." Trust me. No, don't trust me, trust Dr. Covey. And trust your better instincts, the ones that tell you that Dr. Covey, not Bigdirs, is right.</p>

<p>you have no idea about my personal ethics, nor is it any of your business. and I love how you assume that my personality is molded by what professors do or do not teach. what planet are you on? I suspect if we scrutinized your entire life, we'd find you're less than a boy scout yourself. anyone who preaches as forcefully as you probably is doing it to mask their own actions. I never said to pathologically lie and use it to get out of every situation. Please highlight where I said to lie "your way through life". you can't because I didn't. </p>

<p>I simply feel that in this situation, given the predicament the OP is in, the best route is to just avoid the situation. if that means telling a little lie, so be it. This way, the relationship with the person is not tarnished and the OP can go forward and be perfectly honest with them in the future having learned the lesson to not get themselves in the predicament in the first place.</p>

<p>In short, it's very easy for you to talk the talk on an online forum, but in real life situations, it's more than a black and white decision every time.</p>

<p>Bigdirs:</p>

<p>Your personal ethics, or lack thereof, do not concern me. It does concern me, however, that you would encourage the poster to lie his way out of the mostly self-inflicted “messy” situation for which advice is being sought. My point, and that of several other posters who seem to share my concern, is that lying to the OP’s neighbor in this case is not the “right” thing to do. Moreover, as many others have pointed out, there are numerous other “more appropriate” (in our opinion) responses to this situation that do not involve lying to the neighbor. These truthful responses are equally effective in resolving the issue at hand, and are “better” because they allow the OP to maintain his self respect/self esteem while not compromising his honesty and integrity.</p>

<p>When I read the original post, I was troubled by two things. Obviously I felt it was wrong for Trackstar to fake a UVA admissions letter. But I was also concerned that the poster was blaming much of his problem on the neighbor, when in fact, he had contributed mightily to the predicament he faced. I thought it was important for the OP to take more responsibility for his actions. I felt that encouraging him to fake an admit letter, or suggesting he lie to extricate himself from the dilemma he faced, in addition to being “morally wrong” (IMHO), was continuing to not accept responsibility for what had transpired. I didn’t think that taking this approach was best for his present and future well being. I still feel that way.</p>

<p>Sidebar here: It was certainly the OP’s choice to apply, or not to apply, wherever he desired. Thus, I don’t think him “rather stupid” for not having completed his UVA application; obviously that was his decision to make. And I agree with others who have said that he does not owe his neighbor a specific explanation regarding UVA or any other college applications he may have submitted and/or decisions he may have received.</p>

<p>In reading some folks responses, including yours, I was surprised and disheartened to see that there is an apparent disregard for the importance of basic honesty and integrity when it comes to being truthful in one’s interpersonal interactions. Lying appears to be accepted and encouraged if it is perceived to help resolve a situation and avoid conflict. “Little lies” and “white lies” are condoned if they advance the accomplishment of a given purpose.</p>

<p>From the postings of others on this thread, I know that I am not alone in finding such reasoning, and the actions it promotes, alarming. Like others, I believe that being truthful in large and small matters is very important. When it comes to lying or telling the truth, we see this in terms of black and white, not shades of gray. It is clear that we do not agree on this point.</p>

<p>In your latest post you said that if the OP lied to the neighbor, the relationship would not be tarnished and the OP could “go forward and be perfectly honest with them in the future having learned the lesson to not get themselves in the predicament in the first place.” Perhaps they could, and perhaps they would. But I think it much more likely that lying to the neighbor in this instance will increase the probability that the OP will lie again when faced with a similar quandary. Furthermore, I don’t believe that lying in this instance will result in the OP learning any lesson other than it is okay to lie (and hope that the truth never comes out). We may have to agree to disagree on these conclusions.</p>

<p>A few personal notes are in order based on your response to my post. First, I’m not a boy scout or a saint, and I never claimed to be. When faced with moral dilemmas, I sometimes struggle with what’s the right thing to do. That’s human nature, and it is the reason I feel it’s important to suggest that those who talk on this forum give serious thought to the choices they make and the actions they take. Second, I have nothing to hide – no “actions to mask” as you put it.</p>

<p>You are also correct in pointing out that you did not advocate lying “your way through life”. I concluded that this would be the inevitable result of your approach to matters such as this, based on the advice you offered in your post. That may or may not prove to be true. But forgive me if I don’t find the premeditated lying you advocate in your post a positive virtue, for many of the reasons I’ve explained above.</p>

<p>I’ve been a Coach for many years now, and there is a saying that goes like this: “Sports don’t build character, they reveal it.” I would like to paraphrase this quote to characterize the issue at hand. “Messy situations like we’ve been discussing can be used to build character, and they most certainly do reveal it.”</p>

<p>this is ridiculous... OP, this is honestly not a big deal at all. Sorry for being cynical, but you will not be seeing much of your neighbor in around 2 months. Live your life and stop trying to impress a person that will frankly have no bearing on your life at all in a matter of months.</p>

<p>I know. The real problem here is not the lying. It is you wanting so badly to impress or satisfy people that you are willing to constantly lower your standards. Lying is just an example of it.</p>

<p>ok hopeful, I have neither the energy nor motivation to keep arguing about this. I stand by my original advice, I think the majority of people would do the same in that situation, and let the cards fall how they may.</p>

<p>That's all from me on this one.</p>

<p>bigdirs:
I'm spent as well. Lots of folks had interesting points of view on this matter, which made for a good discussion. I apologize for any personal offense my posting may have caused -- that wasn't my intent. Good luck with your job in the Big Apple! Over and out.
PS I wonder what the poor guy (gal?) finally did, and how it turned out .....</p>

<p>I'm an old f**t, old fashioned and would like to give you my two cents.</p>

<p>We never know when telling the truth is really going to pay big dividends. I went to college during the mid 70's and walked on the football team being only two that made it--I played quarterback and was fifth on the depth chart out of five.</p>

<p>About 7 years later there was a job that I really wanted that would pay well but more importantly suit my skills to the T. During the interview the VP noticed on my resume that I played Varsity Football. He asked me what position I played and I told him; then he asked me what string I was. Now many people would have answered 2nd or third string because he would have no way of knowing--who would want someone to know that he was the lousiest QB on the team. But I said fifth string and that was the end of questioning.</p>

<p>Several months later at a dinner meeting with other new hires at this perfect fit company the same VP went around the table and told why he hired each of us. When it was my turn he said, "Tell them why I hired you." I gave several of my characteristics and he said no to each of them. Then he asked me where I went to college, I answered. Then he asked what sport did you play, I answered. Then he asked what position I played, and I answered. Then he asked what string I was, and I answered fifth string. He than turned to everyone and said you guys probably don't know what the fifth string QB goes through everyday. He's not really a QB he's a human tackling dummy that is used by every assistant coach to get smashed by their star players. I hired him because if he can go through that and not give up and also anyone who would admit to being a fifth string QB--I know I can trust. My mouth was wide open and I had such a sence of pride as I heard him showcase me to the others--and btw I made $93,000 the first year of 1984. (who would have known during the interview that the guy new everything about football)</p>

<p>So Trackstar if you've hung on to here. I suggest you go over to your neighbor and say, "Hey look, you have been one of the neighbors that I'll remeber long after I leave here--and I value your opinion. When you asked me to apply to UVA I just didn't want to hurt your feelings. So I started the application but just felt it wasn't the right fit for me. I'm sorry I fibbed to you that I had been accepted--I just didn't want to show you any disrespect. I didn't apply so therefore I never was accepted.</p>

<p>Don't worry about how your neighbor handles this--you did it for yourself. Who knows maybe she knows more than you think and likes you so much that after college she has plans of making you part owner in her business....or perhaps it means nothing until the next time when this guy is offering the perfect position--and you get it because you tell the truth. You can always look your neighbor in the eye and feel confident from there on out.</p>

<p>Good post above.</p>

<p>if you want a copy of my admit letter, PM me! i didn't read this entire board before posting this (sick of all the banter) so if your problem has already been solved, congratulations and sorry to waste your time!</p>

<p>Hornet: Great post! A practical life lesson. Thanks for sharing it.</p>

<p>BTW, I'm wondering if this whole "story" of needing/wanting a UVA admit letter wasn't a red herring -- just a made-up post designed to get folks worked up and debating one another. I base this supposition on a review of Trackstar's other posts, where he has been accused of being a "troll". From the beginning I had some doubts/concerns about the original post. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but if the initial post was just a fabrication, that could account for why we haven't heard any more ftom the OP. Thoughts anyone?</p>

<p>How do you do a review of a users post? I posted on a SAT thread and stupidly forget the name of the thread. I would like to track myself.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

<p>Vistany: Is this the post you are looking for?</p>

<p>"My son took the SAT in March and got 2120. Two weeks ago he had major surgery and is missing 4-6 weeks of school, so in the short term, retake is off our radar screen as we try to get him well and back up to speed to save his jr year. His first choice is UVA does he need to retake this or will it serve as is and have him take a couple of SAT II's. Thanks for your input."</p>

<p>If so, it's on the SAT and ACT Tests and Test Preparation Thread.</p>

<p>To find it:
1. Click on your user name;
2. When the drop down menu appears, click on "View Public Profile";
3. Under Forum Info, click on "Find all posts by Vistany".</p>

<p>Hope that helps. Also hope your son's recovery goes well. Is your son In-State?</p>