This has to concern all of us

<p>Oh come on, unions are not funding elections in near the same way as wallstreet and the banks. That is funny. I would rather support a union though, that is made up of regular workers demanding good benefits than a CEO who is making $10k per hour while his serfs make $8.00 per hour.</p>

<p>College is too expensive. I am in a good position with my first daughter who will go next year because she has perfect grades and solid act. She will be receiving merit aid. However for my youngest, a sophomore who is hovering around a 3.4, things may be different. I am already prepared for her to possibly commute 1hour daily to community college…hopefully not but we will see.</p>

<p>Congrats to you who have demonstrated the personal responsibility route and were able to save most likely hundreds of thousand of dollar for your kids to go to private college or even 100k for state school. Many of us are envious of your obviously high wages and most likely not having to deal with crippling medical bills because both your daughters and husband have chronic medical conditions. Kudos to you. How proud you must be. </p>

<p>Unfortunately in the real world, middle class families need to feed, clothe and provide shelter for their families so they really don’t have the luxury of being able to sock away 200k. They also have retirement to worry about. And health ins. co. that barely pay don’t help either.</p>

<p>My nursing aid friend works full time with health ins. She needed to go to the ER the other day but refused due to the high deductible she would had to have paid. She suffered through the tremendous pain of an acute gallbladder attack with tylenol and not being able to stand up straight for several hours. Not to mention she could have suffered a worse fate like pancreatitis, bile duct obstruction.</p>

<p>But, hey, the next thing we will probably hear is that unes you are upperclass and able to properly raise a child without taking on a shred of debt, than maybe you need to buck up and not have kids ever. Just go to work and let those more privileged have children.</p>

<p>Sound good?</p>

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People need to be careful what they wish for. If this happened then yes, the loans will be more difficult to get (unless still guaranteed by the government) and yes, fewer people will end up owing the large sums of money that they promised to repay. </p>

<p>But the flip side is that far fewer people will get loans and access to education for many, especially those who can’t afford to pay cash and who are too low of income to ‘qualify’ according to the higher standards, will find themselves with fewer options. And if they’re permitted to be ‘dismissed’ so readily due to a government guarantee so the lender doesn’t actually lose money, then it doesn’t solve the problem due to no skin in the game on the part of the lender and it’ll be yet another social debt thrust on the backs of people who actually pay taxes.</p>

<p>I think making this debt ‘dismissable’ yet still guaranteed by the Feds (i.e. taxpayers) will exacerbate the problem - it’ll become a free for all by the entitled ones to ‘borrow’ (I use that term loosely in this context) even more money knowing full well they can simply not pay it back later. This could lead to even higher college costs and even more of a spending and debt issue for the country.</p>

<p>Fault does not have to be all or nothing. I don’t deny that students and parents are choosing poorly by going into massive debt. My point is that they are being ushered along the road to ruin by people who should also know better. It is telling about our society when the plotting wolves garner more sympathy than foolish lambs. Both are at fault but the former deserve more opprobrium in my view. While the students should be wiser (and they are going to college at least partially in that hope), lenders should be less predatory. Access at such great cost is no bargain. </p>

<p>Also, the job landscape has changed radically in recent years. Blaming people for not predicting the risks and benefits of choices is unseemly from those fortunate enough to have skills in demand or to have guessed correctly. Does anyone here claim to know how things will be in the US four years from now?</p>

<p>Instead of limiting access one hopes that there would be more reasonable costs so that students could work while in school and pay as they go. Or perhaps make the 4 year degree a six year degree with planned years off between 2 and 3 and three and four so that the student can come out with a smaller burden, and experience that can help jump start the career. </p>

<p>The current system works if you can fully pay - maintaining privileges for the privileged. It is pretty good giving full rides if you are brilliant and broke. It is squeezing the life blood out of the middle class. If education becomes such a burden that the parents go broke and the student has to work twenty years to pay off loans before starting to save for retirement and putting their own kids through school, then we are watching the death of the American dream and a permanent underclass.</p>

<p>This is all from a 2009 literature review on what factors lead to student loan defaults. As I suspected, it isn’t going to Oberlin and getting a degree in Gender Studies. It’s coming from a low income family with poorly educated parents, maybe being a non-traditional student, and going to community college or trade school, or failing to complete a four-year college. And it’s also a function of the government having continued to promote universal college access while shifting from scholarship grants to loans as the preferred means to that end.</p>

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<p><a href=“Redirect Notice”>Redirect Notice;

<p>I hesitate to post because it might upset others but at the end of the day if you take out a loan you signed for it. You promised to pay it back.<br>
We saved as much as we could for our kids. We also knew it would not be enough. So our kid had to choose a school that fit our price range. Same system we used when buying a house and a car etc. Did she get into higher ranked schools? Yep! Quite a few, but she attends the school that gave her enough merit aid to combine with our savings and a hit to our current lifestyle to make it work. (And it is still painful financially)
We are not more intelligent than other parents, nor are we the wealthy few, but rather just realisitic. Our daughter also knew enough about money to be very wary of loans and debt coming out of school. She is happy at her school. She will get a fine education. Super fancy name? No. Good education? Yes! For our family, that is enough.</p>

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<p>That’s too reasonable an approach for this thread.</p>

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<p>I may be wrong about this, but does the student ever see the lender? Is it not true (I’m asking) that the loan applications and processing are effectively handled by the schools, and simply funded by the lenders? I had some student loans decades ago and I never saw a lender. Only my school’s financial aid officers.</p>

<p>My point is that if someone is predatory here by making a loan to someone who is clearly unlikely to succeed or become employable, it is the schools…not the banks. And I thought the govt program had some kind of enforcement or quality control that cut schools off from the loan programs if their graduates/attendees had high default rates.</p>

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Says you. I beg to disagree. ;)</p>

<p>I don’t think this thread has been all that civil, so I’ll go ahead and put gas on the fire. I don’t believe all corporations are EVIL. Frankly, I’m really sick of hearing that. Are they beholden to shareholders? Yes, and that would be me, you and everyone else in the market with their 401 (k).</p>

<p>I certainly hope we the taxpayers don’t have to bail out even more people who made foolish decisions. I’m in the personal responsibility camp. The banks didn’t hold a gun to homebuyers’ heads and make them take out huge mortgages. Neither do they do so that a student can have a fancy education or live high on the hog for 4 years (or more). S2 is at a cc. It costs $1200/year. He works 3 menial labor jobs and lives on his own. I am amazed at the style in which some college students live. I subsisted on generic pop and Ramen noodles while putting myself through a private college, and graduated into the early 80’s recession.</p>

<p>My cousin went to a public univ in NJ and graduated, with a major in theatre, with debt of $65,000 ~7 years ago. She lived in Michigan. State schools in MI aren’t good enough? I don’t care what money choices people make, but please don’t make poor ones and expect me to repay it.</p>

<p>H thinks we are going to become another India–over-educated populace and no jobs. I think high schools do a disservice to our youth–making everything college prep and dissing trade schools. </p>

<p>I am all for education, but starting to wonder if it makes financial sense. To stay on topic, yes, I’m very worried about the college debt level, but think there’s a certain amount that’s avoidable. I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the next decade to tier 2 and 3 schools. The pool of students is shrinking. I do not think they can keep increasing tuition/ r & b at these rates and keep students.</p>

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<p>That’s a pretty mild statement. “Fewer options” is likely to mean “no options”.</p>

<p>And this will have a supply-side effect as well. If more people are excluded from higher education, more institutions of higher education will cease to exist. It’s impossible to believe otherwise. The ones that cease to exist will be the ones with high default rates now, so presumably fewer students able to obtain loans in the Brave New World. That’s trade schools and community colleges.</p>

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<p>Again, this is typical uninformed argument. The student debt default problem isn’t the result of students with fancy educations who lived high on the hog for 4 years. You are talking about blowing up a whole system shooting at a make-believe target, because you are offended by the behavior of some neighbors or relatives that, on the whole, has almost nothing to do with student loan defaults.</p>

<p>I believe in personal responsibility, too. I don’t know who doesn’t. But it’s much easier to accept personal responsibility if you have personal wealth. The poor aren’t allowed to accept it, because they don’t have anything to back it up with. And this is the only country in the developed world where education is seen as a matter of personal responsibility. One way of defining this problem is to say that maintaining access to education IS the responsibility of taxpayers in general, not individuals, and that the government has been trying to fob it off on students for the past 20 years, without complete success.</p>

<p>mommamocha - I admire the choices you are making. I think getting out of undergrad with a lot of debt is not wise - regardless of the name of the school. I had a lot of debt when I graduated, but I was able to get a very good job at graduation, which is not going to happen for most kids these days. We are fortunate in that we have been able to save for our kids’ educations thanks to two jobs (neither of which we love, but we do appreciate having!), a financially conservative lifestyle, and no major health issues. We all need to be realistic about the burden of debt and the impact the cost of education will have on the future grads and our own financial futures.</p>

<p>Debt is useful in inflationary times but absolute poison in deflationary times. We appear to be in the latter.</p>

<p>I came out of college with $1,000 in debt way back when. Part-time jobs and grants helped but employer tuition reimbursement paid for 3/4s of undergrad and all of my grad school expenses.</p>

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<p>As someone who has participated in a fair amount of meta-analyses, I would point out that the authors selected studies they deemed “high quality”. Also, the time period is interesting – 1978 to 2007. First of all, it’s missing recent economic crises and second to go back as far as 1978 would seem really odd if one is trying to tease out findings meaningful for today. The college population in this country, for one thing, has changed considerably in terms of demographics.</p>

<p>All that said though, it’s interesting stuff. I doubt that it is terribly representative to today. I also think kids with crushing debt from more middle class to affluent families are probably getting help from their families to avoid default. Or they are going to grad school to delay the payoffs.</p>

<p>JHS: bravo. I agree. I am infinitely proud of my best friends son who is at community college. He comes from a family where no one has graduated from college and just a handful from high school. He has faced every single odd there is and has tackled it. He has made poor choices but he is trying to straighten his life out by getting an education. Without student loans that would be impossible. He and his wife live in metro housing on food stamps and wic. The wife has a part time job at walmart (all she could get.) He works part time at walmart also and goes to school.</p>

<p>I would say he is being pretty damn responsible. And he will graduate with at least
$10k in debt. Does anyone else have suggestions about what he should do?</p>

<p>^ Talk to Walmart management, let them know his ambitions and work ethic. He might be surprised at what comes from that.</p>

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<p>Thanks, but I was joking! LOL</p>

<p>That’s all some people want to know.</p>

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The first thing is to not worry about it too much since a $10K debt for college isn’t a lot. If that’s what he ends up with upon graduation he should be able to pay it back fairly readily. He could also do what I did with my loans - forego the temptation to buy a new car, live in a more expensive place, take expensive trips, etc. and expedite paying it back quickly to get it out of his hair.</p>

<p>I agree that he should talk to the Walmart management and see if they might have any options for him including possible scholarships or a more flexible schedule along with an ability to work more hours. He should be able to earn $10K fairly readily by working summers but he may already be using that money for living expenses.</p>

<p>And once he pays it back he should be proud of his accomplishment and proud that he lived up to the responsibility of paying it back. His paying it back will help to ensure these programs are in place so more people like him can get loans - something that he likely couldn’t get if we head down the ‘dismissable student loans’ path.</p>

<p>^ not to mention that paying back the 10K will give him a good credit history!</p>

<p>From JHS’s research, above:</p>

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<p>I’m sorry but how does someone who attended community college for two years end up with $38K in loans? I can’t imagine this would happen in CA, where cc costs about $36 per credit (last time I checked), and FA is available. Do some states’ cc’s really cost over $19K per year?</p>

<p>Using the loan calculator I linked in post #41, that $10K loan will cost him $115.08 per month.</p>