This is an example of the ugly and corrupt side of admissions.

Applying to College
41

<p>DNDSWU, if you don't see the point why did you bother reading and then commenting? I don't see the point in THAT.</p>

<p>I came here to vent because I was so stunned that this exists and is done so blantantly. I am not a rich woman, work hard and try to do the right thing for myself and my kids.....I am a law abiding, upstanding and honest person.....I try to teach my kids the satisfaction one gets when you have worked hard for something. I have never really known much else, as I tend to be close to people much like myself. My friend who I work with and I became good friends because we were both adopted, and had other things in common though we lead very different lives and lifestyles. I never envied her for her multi million dollar home, fancy cars, exotic trips,etc...because I see deep down in her soul she is not totally fulfilled and happy. Once I met her husband, it became crystal clear why. I actually feel pity for her, but disgust at her husband. It is such a sad and empty feeling to know you had to bribe someone or buy someone for something you didn't really earn on your own merit. I wanted to get some feedback on this situation and figured others more experienced could help shed some light on what is obviously more commonplace than I previously believed. It IS shocking to me that a high school would do what they did.....I guess because I just am not that kind of person. I have raised my own kids to stand on their own two feet and to be proud of whatever they have achieved and to not look anyone to blame but themselves for shortcomings/failures. At 17 a person is fully able to take responsibility for their actions. Again though I do not at all blame the son, I blame the dad for allowing it and encouraging this "cheating" as I see it.</p>

42

<p>I'm wondering how "my" story is different</p>

<p>About 2 mos ago my daughter told me that because a friend of hers had pneumonia, but was refusing to go to the hospital becuase of a paper due, the teacher agreed to push back the due date of a major assignment. Having spent some time on CC, I was thinking, man, the parent has some pull...I wondered if it was "fair" ( and the school and town is small enough that I knew the parent had SOMETHING to do with this), ( I also wondered why it was a big enough deal to the girl to soldier on when sick, because that's a LITTLE unusual for most of the kids I know ). My real point is that my daughter was quite relieved for her. Never suggested that she thought it unfair. Didn't seem to care about anyone having an advantage: wanted her friend to succed. So I know this boys dad sounds a lot more sinister, but on a scale of 1 to 10, how different are these stories? Is it the culture of the schools that are different? They send NO kids to Ivie's. Most aspire to small Christian Schools. The Val is heading for Liberty...</p>

43

<p>Entry into a good college is certainly not a meritocracy. if so, the colleges would just take the highest GPA and blend it with the highest scores and accept the top XX%. Instead, they look for intangibles, and kids who play musical instruments, and sports, and do community service, and have rich parents. So the fact that the college might admit him doesn't surprise me so much.</p>

<p>However, the HS -- usually there are rules announced at the start of the year -- about re-takes, about extra credit, and so forth. If the HS or the teacher is being forced to set those rules aside -- under threat of losing lots of $$$ -- that really bothers me too. Isn't that what we call extortion?</p>

<p>Cross-posted with ShrinkRap: The difference is that your daughter's friend was sick and reasonably needed extra time. CTMomof3's friend's son has no excuse and shouldn't get special treatment.</p>

44

<p>Money talks. That's the real world.</p>

45

<p>Shrinkrap, the stories are VERY different IMO. If there's a kid who has all As in his AP classes, has math competition on Saturdays and gets summer internships in microbiology at the local university, and who then one semester comes down with mono and gets Ds, the colleges will give him a pass as they should. In the case you outline, the girl with pneumonia was willing to put her life on the line for the sake of a paper! This is a kid who passionately wants to do well. In the case of the OP's example, the kid could care less and shouldn't get a pass. It should have nothing to do with money, but the character of the particular kid.</p>

46

<p>I have trained myself not to worry about what happens with other people. It's a dead-end street.</p>

<p>I'm with riverrun here. I do feel sorry for these kids because we don't even know if the kids want to attend this school. The father wants them too.</p>

<p>It doesn't sound like they have any room to live their own lives.</p>

<p>My kids each got into schools that were perfect fits for them without any bribing. I did teach them how to battle several unfair grades. They did it themselves, without me. Teachers could have held the line. One did. Oh well.</p>

<p>If I had that much money perhaps I could have bribed their way into Harvard and Yale (schools are not much below), but would they have been any happier? I doubt it.</p>

<p>They were realistic. Didn't have the chops or achievement level for HYP, even though a legacy friend got in with less. They were just happy for her. I was so proud of them. And she is a wonderful girl; a lot to give beyond just numbers.</p>

<p>It is disturbing that the high school compromised that much because it is unfair to classmates, but honestly, I wish all high school kids got second chances. I really do.</p>

47

<p>Money talks. That's the real world.</p>

<p>Ah, but should it? That much - That's the real question here, and I, for one, think we move dangerously away from a merit based society to a class based one when we view the money/wealth as the virtue and not the work that earned the money. </p>

<p>In any country where talent and virtue produce no advancement, money will be the national god. Its inhabitants will either have to possess money or make others believe that they do. Wealth will be the highest virtue, poverty the greatest vice. Those who have money will display it in every imaginable way. If their ostentation does not exceed their fortune, all will be well. But if their ostentation does exceed their fortune they will ruin themselves. In such a country, the greatest fortunes will vanish in the twinkling of an eye. Those who don't have money will ruin themselves with vain efforts to conceal their poverty. That is one kind of affluence: the outward sign of wealth for a small number, the mask of poverty for the majority, and a source of corruption for all.
-- Denis Diderot, Observations on the Drawing Up of Laws (written 1774 for Catherine the Great), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations</p>

48

<p>I kind of feel bad for the son. I mean, with all his resources, he probably would be achieving at a higher level if he wanted to. Pops is trying to run his life.</p>

49

<p>
[quote]

Thinking of all those kids out there who have busted their butts for four years, without the help or aid these kids had, who got grades the LEGITIMATE way, to get turned away because of an undeserving kid who took THEIR spot like this is almost heartbreaking. This is indeed the ugly side to admissions, and while I have heard such things exist, I have only through my friendship with this woman seen it first hand and its been given a face. It is really a stunning revelation that like politics, this game is also quite corrupt. This is sadly not always about integrity, honesty and morality but more about who can pull ahead at any cost, no matter what it took to put you there. I know his wife struggles with what they have done which is why she has opened up to me. She unlike the husband is tormented by the dishonest and unfair tactics that they have used to get their son where THE HUSBAND wants him. They have another daughter who she is determined to let carve her own path, though I doubt her husband will allow this to happen. This was just so startling to me I had to write about it. It really saddened me that some innocent kid who worked really hard to get into this school will likely lose the spot from this kid who didn't do a darn thing to earn it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, not that it will make you feel better, but just think of many of our highest politicians. The last 2 Presidential elections featured candidates (George W. Bush, Al Gore, and John Kerry) that were all 'Fortunate Sons': guys who succeeded by virtue of their family's elite connections. I think everybody, even the most diehard Republican, would agree that Bush was basically a drunk and lazy ne'er-do-well until he was about 40. Yet he still got into Yale and then Harvard Business School. Al Gore barely graduated in the top 50% of his high school class (graduating #25 out of 51 students), yet still got into Harvard, and in fact, Harvard was the only school to which he applied. Gore's grades at Harvard, especially in the first 2 years, were not very good. John Kerry seemed to have actually done well in high school, but not at Yale, and in fact actually performed slightly worse than Bush did when he was at Yale. Kerry's Yale record was especially hurt by his 4 D's he received in his freshman year, and another D in his sophomore year, and Kerry freely admitted that he spent more time at Yale learning how to fly planes than on actually studying.</p>

50

<p>you can get anything you want in this world with enough money. this situation is not too surprising. it doesn't really hurt anyone either, since attending prestigious schools are only a small fraction of WHY people are successful. there is a correlation between attending prestigious schools and success because most people that attend such schools have worked extremely hard to be where they are. however, if a student is given free admission without working hard, the name of the school he attends will give him very little help in landing an actual job. so no one is really getting hurt here except for the son, who now has to undergo four years of hell and most likely a pretty rude awakening/identity crisis. sounds like the dad is a selfish ass who wants to be able to tell all his business associates that his son is going to University X at parties and social activities. the father doesn't really care about the son; he just cares about himself and his own effed up values.</p>

51

<p>If we're talking about politicians and their academic records, let's not forget that John McCain's father and grandfather were Admirals in the Navy and surely had a hand in getting him into the Naval Academy. McCain wasn't much of a student and graduated 5th from the bottom of his class at the US Naval Academy. </p>

<p>Mitt Romney was also a child of privilege and went to a prestigious prep school (Cranbrook) in Michigan and then went to Stanford before transferring to BYU. He graduated as Valedictorian at BYU. Then for his Harvard JD/MBA, he graduated cum laude from the law school and was a Baker Scholar (top 5%) at the business school.</p>

52

<p>There was a study that found that those who were accepted to top colleges like HYPSM but chose to attend lesser colleges made the same amount of money
as those who attended the top schools. The schools themselves do not create leaders; they simply accept future leaders. At the end of the day, you are who you are. It sounds like this kid is going to Notre Dame...I hope he has fun. I am not jealous. Life's satisfaction and growth comes from challenging yourself. If he does not challenge himself, he is missing out and for that I am not jealous.</p>

53

<p>
[quote]
There was a study that found that those who were accepted to top colleges like HYPSM but chose to attend lesser colleges made the same amount of money
as those who attended the top schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The infamous problem with that study is its endogeneity. To wit: nobody turns down HYPSM randomly, they do so for a reason. In other words, those particular students who got into HYPSM and then decided to go elsewhere are clearly not representative of the general pool of students who did get into HYPSM, but rather are a peculiar and self-selected subgroup. For example, maybe that subgroup consists of unusually self-confident and self-motivated people who realize that they don't need HYPSM to succeed. But that doesn't prove that the rest of the HYPSM pool doesn't need HYPSM.</p>

<p>The only way to perform a true study is to take all those students who got into HYPSM and then randomly have some of those students actually attend HYPSM and other students attend some other school. Obviously this would be impossible to do in the real world. Another possibility might be to find an instrumental variable or a Heckman Selection Model to tease out the endogeneity, but I have doubts as to its feasibility.</p>

54

<p>I fail to see how these students that turn down HYPSM aren't representative of the people that get in. More than likely, the reasons are about campus/school fit or financial reasons, not because they want to spurn the reputation of a top school. Their reasons aren't the same, and thus can't be bundled in to a category. It's about as random as you can get.</p>

55

<p>shrinkrap, the situations are VERY different. Of course I can understand that you D.was happy for her friend to be accomodated, afterall she WAS sick....how can you compare the two? Every school I think to some degree would be willing to bend a little for a kid who is sick or having some kind of pesonal issue. This was not that, the only issue is that the son does not want to work hard, his parents keep setting up all these meetings and extra helps, he never attends. What is he saying? I am guessing that its not that important and that attending this particular college is not important enough to work hard for.
Even his own wife said she is embarrased to talk to anyone at school now because she feels that behind the scenes they are probably laughing at them and how they are scurrying about for the son that could give a darn. The fact that a school would go so out of the their way for kid not even remotely interested is mind boggling to me. If they are going to give him that second chance, which is what it is, then they owe it to every senior who would love to tweak a grade or two. I have to think that the school could really get themselves in hot water if anyone found out about this. It's ashame because the son's own self worth is going right down the drain feeling that whatever he can do on his own, is not good enough.</p>

56

<p>"how can you compare the two? "</p>

<p>I didn't know, that's why I asked. It's just that CC and most of the kids & situations discussed seem almost alien to me, and I wonder what that means. When I noticed myself thinking about fairness and my daughter was so happy for her friend, I wondered if my attitude was getting warped, and if it was because of things I was reading here. I think I'm struggling with the notion of why do some people care so much? Maybe I have blinders on, but I don't seem to be able to find one example of that in my community.</p>

57

<p>When exactly was the period when all college admissions, etc where based on merit in the USA?. We are probably closer today than ever but hardly there when exclusive prep schools and rich publics HSs maintain a a major segment of elite college slots.</p>

58

<p>
[quote]
I fail to see how these students that turn down HYPSM aren't representative of the people that get in. More than likely, the reasons are about campus/school fit or financial reasons, not because they want to spurn the reputation of a top school. Their reasons aren't the same, and thus can't be bundled in to a category. It's about as random as you can get.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, they're completely unrepresentative, and I'm surprised that you can't see it. </p>

<p>Let me give you a few examples. I know a bunch of guys who turned down top schools for other, supposedly "lesser" schools. But let me tell you some of the reasons:</p>

<p>*Some of them did it to attend combined BS/MD programs that guarantee their admission to med school (providing that they stay eligible). Sure, those BS/MD programs were at "lesser" schools, but hey, they're getting a med-school admissions guarantee, and that's priceless these days. Doctors obviously make far more money than the average American.</p>

<p>*One guy decided to go to a supposedly academically lower-ranked school. Why? Football. This guy's dream is to give it his best shot at making it in the NFL. That school that he chose has a top-ranked football program and offered him both a football scholarship and, more importantly, an opportunity to start and showcase his skills at a premier college team in a way that the Ivies could not. Seemed to have worked out. Granted, he's not as good as Glenn Dorsey or Matt Ryan, but he's still projected to be picked fairly highly in the upcoming NFL Draft. And as an NFL player, he will make far far more money than almost any Ivy grad. </p>

<p>2 guys I know didn't want to move to the Northeast specifically because they were already running successfully businesses while in high school and they didn't want to have to leave (as they were not located in the Northeast). So they simply decided to attend lesser-ranked local schools while running their businesses. These guys will surely make more money than will the average Ivy grad. Heck, they were probably doing so while still in *high school, as their businesses were fairly successful. </p>

<p>I could go on, but the salient point is that this is NOT a random experiment. Not even close. I encourage you to take a course on basic statistics if you don't understand why. Essentially, randomization requires that subjects are not allowed to self-select their way into different categories. Those who self-select will do so for reasons, generally because they are probably more motivated than are others. </p>

<p>In fact, your point about ability to pay precisely captures this point. Those people who self-select out of top-ranked (but expensive) schools for reasons of money have demonstrated that they are unusually financially driven (relative to the rest of the students). Hence, these are the same people who are probably highly motivated to take the highest-paying career they can get after graduation (even if it requires ridiculous hours). On the other hand, if you come from a rich family, you probably don't feel motivated to get the highest-paying job you can get because you're already rich. You don't need the money. </p>

<p>But I'll turn the question around. If self-selection is not important in terms of confounding these kinds of studies, then why did James Heckman win a Nobel in Economics specifically for his techniques to compensate for the effects of self-selection, if self-selection isn't important anyway?</p>

59

<p>
[quote]
When exactly was the period when all college admissions, etc where based on merit in the USA?. We are probably closer today than ever but hardly there when exclusive prep schools and rich publics HSs maintain a a major segment of elite college slots.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree that such a time probably never truly existed that "all" college admissions were based on merit. If nothing else, I think we can at least agree that it wasn't that long ago when admissions to many US state schools was 100% racist. What I am specifically talking about is that it was just 40-50 years when almost all flagship state schools in the South specifically barred blacks from attending. As a case in point, W.E.B. Dubois could get into Harvard but he couldn't get into the University of Tennessee or other flagship state schools in the South. It didn't matter how good he was. What mattered is that he was black, and so he couldn't go. The first black undergrad wasn't admitted to the University of Tennessee until 1961. </p>

<p>Certainly we are not a full meritocracy today. But, hey, at least, we are closer to it than we were in the old days, when plenty of schools banned students just because they were of a certain race. Or a certain gender (i.e. many schools did not go co-ed until a few decades ago). Or a certain religion - which shouldn't be that surprising as many schools were denominationally founded and hence specifically barred those who were not members of that denomination.</p>

60

<p>Back to the OP - sometimes it is not fair how kids and their families manage to get themselves into these schools - but the old adage may apply here - he may have gotten in (with lots of help from dad) - now the question will be - can he stay there - that will completely up to the student - dad can't buy every one off - so the kids has to manage things from here on in.</p>

<p>If the kid doesn't cut the mustard - then dad will have to deal with the failure - as well as the kid - aawwww shucks for dad - bummr for kid - but that is the way the ball bounces sometimes.</p>