This next cycle may lose one to the nerds.

<p>Update : My D has always been a science geek. She loves research and she's good at it. Intuitive and in some folks eyes maybe even a "star". I don't know enough to know what they are talking about but that's what they've told me. Who knew?</p>

<p>She was "warned" early by our neighbor cardiologist that the PhD. folks would be on her like leeches and she should steel herself to ward off their advances. It appears she may not have done that good a job on that. </p>

<p>Well.......they may be reeling her in to shore. She spent the last several days in SF among scientists at the Cell Biologists annual blowout and she presented her poster, wined and dined, and was totally impressed. She loves talking about her research and where she'll be taking it next. She met with folks from Yale, Rockefeller, Stanford, Pitt, and the like and ...well, I'll learn more but I kinda suspect the kid may decide to do a PhD. prior to med school. Her record, her research, her mentor's rep, previous grad placement of her lab mates, her grades, her awards, all suggest she can get a good gig at a top spot. </p>

<p>She could always decide to still go MD/PhD this next cycle (and she was going to apply to several selected programs), or to CCLCM or a few others with specific research orientation she likes and she has thought about it a bunch but her MCAT score (good but not what she wanted) leaves her with different options than she wants school-wise. She took the MCAT after sophomore year without a prep course but with a full set of prep materials. Might not have been her best choice. She didn't make the score she needed to be reasonably competitive at the programs she wants/needs for the academic/research medical scientist career path. (Not out of the question but sage folks in the know have told me that it is a long-shot.) </p>

<p>She was disappointed immediately and screamed "re-take!!" but the accepted wisdom (from everybody - profs, pre-med advisors, me) was not to retake a score as high as hers. Under her existing plan , her score was really quite good enough. Med school anywhere would get her where she wants to go but................as is usual with my kid she is changing the game as she goes. </p>

<p>Nothing is constant but change. I wonder where her road will take her . I wish I could offer specific advice and counsel but .....I know absolutely nothing that would help.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I wish I could offer specific advice and counsel but .....I know absolutely nothing that would help.

[/quote]
Sounds like she is doing an excellent job of figuring it all out for herself. Wonderful place to be :). I think you can probably relax (yea - like we parents do that).</p>

<p>I will be thrilled if and when my daughter gets to the stage of having a good idea of what she really wants - she is still at the "not sure what she wants to be, was strongly leaning toward Medical but now is not sure her grades will be good enough (got Cs in Orgo and Micro this semester after having As in her sciences before now). She gets frustrated at herself for not knowing for sure what she wants. I will jump for joy when it all gels together in her mind.</p>

<p>Keep us updated about your daughter's path. I can enjoy it vicariously while I wait nervously on mine!</p>

<p>I wish she would go the MD/PHD combined route. The problem with getting the PHD first is many never go on to medical school. They get older, meet boys, get married and other darn distractions along the way over the years(3-6) it requires to get the PHD(not to mention the post-doc fellowships), and the next thing you know, you are 30 with the pitter-patter of little feet around and well, you know....</p>

<p>If you don't mind me asking, what was her MCAT score? Being lower than the median is fine (50% of the students were), especially if her research is going that well. That certainly sounds like something to make up for any deficiency in her MCAT (well, "deficiency" as deemed by the crazy averages of top schools). MD/PhD and MSTP programs also vary in their admission difficulties, but that might be an issue if she's targeting certain areas of the country to go.</p>

<p>Good luck to her if she decides to just go PhD, though!</p>

<p>Steeler, although I'm not usually shy about this stuff (see all the other details I've posted :eek:) I'll just say that it is one point below where I would say she had a good shot at top MD school admissions, but a big 3 points below being a top candidate (with her sophomore Goldwater and other "stuff") for the most selective MSTP programs. She is a couple of points above where folks say "don't re-take". She has no sections that are below a 10, a very "balanced" score. She's in very good shape for all Texas schools except Baylor and Southwestern and has a better than decent shot at them.</p>

<p>As she put it, if it was a point lower she would have re-taken, a point higher she would "hold" and work the other parts of her app. It's quite a conundrum.</p>

<p>In retrospect, she took it too early and/or should have prepped differently.</p>

<p>sounds like a 33(give or take); with her GPA and Goldwater etc.., I would still not completely rule out a top program(it isn't always about the numbers). Although Baylor is a bit numbers driven(as my GPA killed me), I think she may have a shot there as well. I hope any initial disappointment about not getting a 38+ fades, she still has a very impressive resume for a college junior.</p>

<p>Does she need an MD to do medical research? Make sure she finds out.</p>

<p>hubbell, turn your pm on and shoot me a message. Thanks.</p>

<p>It doesn't make much sense to do a PhD first and then a MD. Not only would it take 3 or so more years, you'll have to foot the bill for the 200k that med school's going to cost. If she can't get into a top MSTP program, she still has a good chance at a lower tier MSTP program (since the MSTP program is only offered at the top 35 or so research med schools, low tier means a school that's ranked b/w 20-40 in the US News rankings).</p>

<p>I agree with Norcal, I would encourage her to at least thoroughly investigate the MD/PhD options, that may be the combo that takes her to the top schools she wants and address both goals simultaneously.</p>

<p>While the costs are certainly significant, and boy do I understand the point being made, she really wants to be at "the" right place for her research (wherever that is). If she , for example , had the opportunity to work in the lab of Dr. Super Grand Poobah of Phenomenal U (who she knows will give her some autonomy - read "work conditions she likes") in a field she likes....well, she may very well choose that over an MD/PhD. at Northern South Dakota State. There are a couple of schools that are less selective that have caught her eye through contacts she has made.</p>

<p>I expect she will make a run at some MD/PhD. programs that fit her desires but that are more in keeping with her MCAT and maybe a couple of flyers, too.</p>

<p>somemom, it is my understanding that MSTP or MD/PhD. programs at the "top schools" are hideously competitive and her MCAT may exclude her, even though the rest of her app may be stellar.</p>

<p>I will happily be proved wrong. ;)</p>

<p>I'm in un-charted waters here folks and lost my compass/sextant/bearings a long time ago.</p>

<p>If she wants to do research, then I would recommend that she apply to the mstp programs that she's interested in, and then also phd programs at the same schools as backups. I have heard that the rockefeller/sloan/weill tri-institutional mstp program isn't quite as numbers driven as others tend to be. Different schools have different methods of admitting the mstp candidates-- some schools have a separate admissions process for the two, and others admit you first to the medical school and then to the mstp. Given her research background she would probably do better at the ones that have a separate track. She shouldn't have any problem getting into the phd program of her choice (although apply to a couple, as the atmosphere at the schools is different, and while the labs are important, it wasn't until visiting that I knew what I wanted). I also know several people who finished their phd and then went to medical school.</p>

<p>All good to know. Thanks.</p>

<p>I need to put out there that I have no idea where or which way or what vehicle she'll be driving after UG. Just noticed a shift in thinking. To be more accurate , she did state in a conversation from SF that "I know I'm 'in the moment' and things could look different when I land in Memphis". That's why I phrased it "may" in the title. ;)</p>

<p>As to a post a few back, I know that you can do medical research without a MD or without a PhD.. She has considered both , also a masters, also a research track M.D. program, also just a research year stuck in there somewhere.</p>

<p>For example, I know MUSC has the MSTP. I'd imagine it'd be competitive, but certainly less so than the better known MSTPs. I'd think there would be similar programs in terms of competitiveness.</p>

<p>She has a Goldwater? Congrats to her, that is a very impressive honor. Like I said, with her research credentials she seems like she has enough going for her to warrant serious consideration from these top research minded schools.</p>

<p>If what she wants to do is basic research, then the md alone or the md/masters doesn't make much sense. At my undergrad school and at my graduate school, all of the faculty have at least a phd. That is probably not as true in more applied research settings, although I don't know as much about them. Also, if she's interested in research, with medicine on the side, then where you go for graduate school makes a really big difference. Unlike med school, there aren't standardized tests at the end. Most labs don't actively broadcast too many post-doc positions, rather the position is open through word of mouth and by actively asking the PI. The reputation of your graduate advisor plays a big role in obtaining the post-doc job. In addition, the funding situation of the lab can affect everyday life and the ease at which you can get your research done. The top schools tend to have the better funded labs (clearly not always the case, either way). </p>

<p>The question is whether it is worth going to a worse program for the phd half of the degree in order to also get the medical degree. And that really depends on what she wants to do with her research. </p>

<p>There are also more medically oriented phd programs which she might be interested in. I know harvard/mit have the joint HST program, and at least one school that I interviewed at (uwashington?) had a medicine minor that you could get with your phd.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The question is whether it is worth going to a worse program for the phd half of the degree in order to also get the medical degree. And that really depends on what she wants to do with her research.

[/quote]
Well stated ;).....I think. But that is the question......I think. But so far she's been in the tub 3 of the 4 hours she's been home. Maybe I'll know something by New Year's.</p>

<p>My dad, a research technician in radiation biology, worked with a Ph.D. post-doc (married, w/children) who went back for an MD because he wasn't considered qualified for medical research without it. This was many years ago.</p>

<p>why do i feel like you're actually very disappointed that your daughter is planning to go the PhD route?</p>

<p>I doubt that's the case, msb. I'm sticking with this. ;)
[quote]
I'm in un-charted waters here folks and lost my compass/sextant/bearings a long time ago.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I couldn't give a rat's:eek: about her being a doc. I've lived next door to doc's since 95. Nothing magic about it to me. I don't think there's anything magic about to her , either. She's had fairly substantial clinical experiences since junior year of high school. Her eyes are wide open about the PRACTICE of medicine. It's this medical scientist stuff that is getting fuzzy for her. She'll work it out. BTW, we still haven't addressed it since she came home. But the tree is going up quite nicely. ;)</p>

<p>Through the kind folks on CC , she has had a couple of offers to talk to people in the know about such things over the break.</p>