<p>Did you think that not being in top 10% really hurts you in applying to good schools? Does it really take that much out of your application in the running? Because it seems like if you are not in the top 10% you have hardly a chance in getting to a top 20-30 school if you don't have some godly hook.</p>
<p>Rigor of your academic schedule still counts a lot more than top 10%. It has been interesting to hear about all the jockeying for position at my D's high school the last few weeks. She has had several top students drop out of her calculus, anatomy and humanities classes because they were afraid that a B+ or two would bring down their rank. This included the current top candidate for validictorian, who has generally avoided the most academically challenging courses despite being exceptionally bright. (My D, who is a friend of hers, tells us her reason for this is laziness, not an attempt to insure a number one rank). Anyway, I believe the more sophisticated admissions offices know this sort of thing goes on. Of course, if they don't know the individual school particularly well, they may not be aware of patterns whereby the "top" students pad their GPA and rank by taking the easy way out. I wouldn't worry if you are just outside the top 10% as long as you are taking challenging courses and doing well with them.</p>
<p>At the most selective schools, yes, it will hurt. Of the applicants in the top 10-20%, Brown admitted 3.9%, Duke admitted 7.9%, and Penn admitted 4%.
Some of the less selective (or less numerically inclined) top schools would be more than willing to accept students not in the top 10%. For example, 20% of Chicago students were not in the top 10% of their class.</p>
<p>^^^ Wait...you meant NOT in the top 10-20%, right?</p>
<p>HudsonV, that's actually pretty funny. Kids at our school would rather take a tougher course-load at our school even if their rank was at risk. I guess it's just 'cause we think it's so much cooler to say, "I'm in Calc BC" than "I'm ranked 9, but I've never taken an AP in my life." It might also be that there's no way one could get top 5 without taking APs to get weight, because we don't give weight for accelerated courses.</p>
<p>^ same at my school, so lame...otherwise i'd be ranked like 5/450 but instead i'm ranked like 50/450, lame</p>
<p>I did a study of this a few years ago. I used US News for rankings. As I recall, about 2/3 of the top national universities consider class rank either important or very important. That number was much higher for the top LACs. In addition, Attewell of CUNY did a study ("The Winner Take All High School) a few years ago and found that class rank played a very large part in the likelihood of admission to the Ivies.</p>
<p>The unfortunate truth seems to be that class rank counts for a lot, which is why something in the neighborhood of 40% of high schools no longer report class rank to college admissions departments. That number declining increases a lot for private schools, who know how to play that game.</p>
<p>Exactly. My private school stopped ranking because it doesn't do anything good for admissions. Because everyone is so smart, and about two dozen students of a graduating class of 200 go on to Ivies, with many others going to fairly selective colleges, class rank can be misleading. My school is very careful with how they choose students for programs and academic distinctions. Everything is based on weighted GPA, so a student has to take challenging courses while maintaining good grades if they want to become valedictorian etc.</p>
<p>You guys are lucky that your schools weight at all. My school ranks but doesn't weight. UGH!</p>
<p>
I meant precisely what I said. The acceptance rates I listed are for the students outside the top 10% but within the top 20%.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some of the less selective (or less numerically inclined) top schools would be more than willing to accept students not in the top 10%.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Warblers, some schools pay little or no attention to 9th grade GPA. Later bloomers often get into those schools even if they are outside the top 10%. For instance, I know a young lady from Eastern Europe who got terrible 9th grade grades because she spoke almost no English, then blew it out from there. I think the Ivies would have looked askance at her, but Northwestern was happy to take her. And rightly so, in my book.</p>
<p>It always make me wonder - are the admission rates actually directly affected by the rank?</p>
<p>Or, is it just a tendency for the top 10% to also happen to have the most rigorous loads, with a few exceptions?</p>
<p>
The acceptance rates of valedictorians and salutatorians at Penn usually differ by a whopping 10-12% (this year it was 7%). What do you think? Personally, I find it very difficult indeed to believe that valedictorians have a much tougher courseload than salutatorians.</p>
<p>warblers:</p>
<p>Yep. Attewell found that there was an enormous difference in admissions rates betwen the #1 and #5 person in the class. Clearly, the Ivies are treating differences within the margin of error as though they're significant.</p>
<p>if they pick the # 1, its because it looks good in the stats, nothing more
wow, look how many vals WE got...woohoo</p>
<p>its forshow,nothing more</p>
<p>mj93: Same here. Ranking without weighting is the most ridiculous thing ever. I've taken tons of honors and AP's, but since I got a few A-'s, there are kids who take nothing but gym classes and culinary 101 who are ranked higher than me.</p>
<p>ranking is actually pretty lame, it is basically meaningless as a means of comparing students</p>
<p>and that is why the ivies, eh, aren't as into it as some of you seem to hope for</p>
<p>sure they brag about so many in the top ten and so many vals, but someone won't get rejected outright if they are say, lower than 10percentile</p>
<p>^ I know, it completely sucks. Admission Officers need to get a brain and see that class rank means nothing when unweighted. Mr. 95 with all easy relaxing classes is not academically superior than the person with a 94 average w/ all AP;s/Honors, who has infact preformed much better academically than the idiot with the 4.0</p>
<p>my high school actually does weighting. from the posts here it seems that many of ur high school do not weight ap and honors classes according. i feel bad for u guys because at my school u have to take ap and honors exclusively to be in top 5% or so. however many people will take calc ab which is a ton easier than calc bc, just cuz they are counted equally for gpa
:(</p>
<p>Look, folks, even weighted grads can be very misleading. Let me give you an example.</p>
<p>Student #1 takes the following classes and gets the following grades:</p>
<p>AP Physics = A
AP Chem = A
AP Spanish = A
AP Language Arts = A
AP Calculus = B</p>
<p>Student #2 has the following grades:</p>
<p>AP Physics = A
AP Chem = A
AP Spanish = A
AP Language Arts = A
AP Calculus = A
Regular computer science = A
Regular theater arts = A</p>
<p>Now, on a weighted scale where an A = 5 for AP classes, student #1, who did LESS well in her weighted courses than student #2, will get a GPA of 4.8. Student #2, who did BETTER in all the weighted courses PLUS took two extra courses, and got STRAIGHT As, will get a bit better than a 4.7.</p>
<p>My experience with admissions departments is that they don't always understand this.</p>