<p>An interesting thread; if Slipper's first post had the content of his/her post #35, the debate would have had more substance. </p>
<p>Some thoughts:</p>
<ol>
<li>I would encourage all of you to read Colleges that Change Lives re: the standard "Harvard vs. anyone else" debate.</li>
<li>Denison grads do well (it has an incredible (per-capita) endowment, for example)</li>
<li>Don't forget the issue of matching for the individual student. One who would despise the Harvard culture might thrive at, e.g., Kenyon or Denison, and beat out the Harvard grad for a spot at HLS, YLS, whatever.</li>
<li> I could fill an ocean liner with all the idiots I know who attended the "top school" known as Michigan.</li>
</ol>
<p>I know graduates from Harvard who have done nothing with their lives - they began their careers with an entitlement attitude - "I graduated Harvard. Give me the prestige and the money." They felt they had already earned the rewards and just had to reap them. They got a very rude awakening from which they never recovered.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I know graduates of "lesser" schools who have done brilliant things - they knew how to work and that they were guaranteed nothing. No entitlements there.</p>
<p>Slipper, to echo dadtimesthree, did it ever occur to you that the people you had dinner with, your Dartmouth cohorts, became your friends because they had the same temperament and goals as you did? How can you be so convinced that you wouldn't have found like-minded people at any school you attended? (And as far as "awareness" is concerned, they do read the Wall Street Journal in the midwest, too.) In fact, research shows just the opposite: Kids who got into the Ivies but attended "lesser" schools were just as successful 10 years later as those who actually attended the Ivies.</p>
<p>I personally feel that almost every person from Dartmouth I know is highly driven and successful, and this has nothing to do with my personal self-selection. 90% of people fit into this category at a place like Dartmouth and then add in the tremendous exposure to opportunities. </p>
<p>Then take 10% of people at a place like Denison having this drive and add in the lack of opportunity or exposure to "bigtime" people. </p>
<p>Couple smart kids and exposure and you are going to have an incredibly powerful network. Then take weaker students and no exposure and you'll have a much less successful peer group regardless of one's personal ambition.</p>
<p>It still makes me chuckle that the high powered connection making school that is Dartmouth has a country kid with a Wisconsin degree running the place.</p>
<p>I agree with slipper's post #35. The only difference with him and those who are aware of this opportunity set is they don't trumpet that advantage for others to know. Why should they.</p>
<p>Its true. I even feel uncomfortable talking about it on a public forum. But salary expectations and life goals among students at the top schools borders on ridiculous. The second truth though is that most Ivy students achieve these expectations. When you hang out with a smart, aware, crowd you are exposed to things you would never be exposed to at a lesser school.</p>
<p>An example: My best friend in made $800K as a trader last year, he's 27.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Do you think that the only traders who make a lot of money at a young age are from Ivy league schools or, for that matter, work on Wall Street? If so, come to my area in suburban Chicago, where most of the young traders making big bucks went to Big Ten schools. </p></li>
<li><p>Do you think your friend couldn't have made it if he'd gone to a "lesser" school? If so, are the studies showing that kids who choose "lesser" schools over Ivies turn out to be equally successful erroneous or made up?</p></li>
<li><p>What is the source for your statement that "most Ivy students achieve [ridiculous] expectations"? And, how many of those kids who do start from positions of extreme privilege which would give them a leg up no matter where they went to school?</p></li>
<li><p>Again, why couldn't the students you are talking about hang out with a "smart, aware crowd" at a non-Ivy school? Do you honestly think they couldn't find 25-50 smart, aware kids with high goals and aspirations at Dennison, Illinois, or other similar schools?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Look, I'm not arguing that college isn't a crucial time for kids, or that striving to go to an excellent school isn't a laudable idea. There are certainly differences between levels of schools, and, all things being equal, it is often the case that the "better" school will be the better choice. But, the idea that it is a slam dunk barring financial considerations sounds more like a self justification than it does a statement of "the truth".</p>
<p>If being another consultant or bond trader or the flavor of the month financial scammer is changing the world, the world is in trouble. Let's think of some recent developments that changed the world--Google--a couple of state school guys. First major Internet search engine--some guy from the University of Illinois. Dell- a UT undergrad.</p>
<p>I do agree that the culture of expectation is much higher at the better schools. Slipper makes an excellent point about exposure to the world of possibilities. Do all students need exposure to that? Certainly not. Do many need it? Certainly so.</p>
<p>I am NOT the biggest HYP advocate on CC - far from it - but Slipper makes an excellent point.</p>