I didn’t realize there was no in-state tuition adjustment…good to know!
I didn’t see any, at any rate. They have music scholarships but they aren’t large (at least as published on the web site) From what I could see the 6k is for honors college which is a separate application. The academic bar is fairly low for eligibility. OOS tuition looks like about 19k per year so if you get maximum merit it could cut that in half - still quite good but not auto in-state. Compared to a conservatory or NYU etc. it’s good or if you are New Jersey resident.
I third looking at SUNY Purchase. The head of the jazz studies department, Todd Coolman is also a bass professor, and a super nice person. When we visited there, he stayed after an evening performance and talked to us for an hour. He is also involved in the Skidmore summer program, I think. My son did not apply there because they didn’t offer music business as a major. Certainly, the tuition is very attractive, even at the out of state rate.
I am reporting more data here. I need to create a handy name - there is a college program not of a national name that would be mentioned very often in this forum, so let’s say it has some regional scope and call it ABC.
So, at some recent point in time, S attends a jazz camp at ABC. Of course, it is fun and good. The most relevant professor to S’s instrument is there and (with brief but accurate wording here to make more confidential) says he wants S to attend ABC and to give lessons to S. Follow-up discussion seems appropriate, but has not yet occurred.
That’s encouraging @GoForth - your son sounds exceptional. Is this professor talking about teaching your son now, during high school? I remember that he’s already working with 2 teachers - classical and bass. And he sounds pretty busy! Have you narrowed down the jazz camps for this summer?
My son was accepted into Berklee for this Fall and we are thrilled and excited for him. He did receive a partial scholarship from his audition, which we are very happy about, but still very pricy and still a lot more expensive than any state schools. It took us a while to wrap our heads around the fact that he would pursue music as a career. For him, however, there is nothing else! I continue to see where kids are applying to as many as 10-12 schools. In our search, when it comes to music schools, they are not created equally in terms of where your child fits. Each one is dynamic and has an individual style. They also have very different philosophies on music and music education. Many schools were not even considered by my son because he wanted a Contemporary Music School. That narrowed down the list dramatically. Every musician is very unique and will have his/her own sets of criteria of what they are looking for in a college. In my opinion though, if your child is not interested in a certain school, do not make him apply there as a back-up as it makes no sense. Also, if you have no intention or way of paying high tuition at some of the private conservatories, why even let them audition? I have seen parents that allow their children to audition and they actually get in and then are told by their parents that they cannot attend because of finances. While it is understandable that so many of these schools are just unaffordable to so many, to me it is just wrong! If you are allowing your children to audition in hope that they get a full ride, just assume they will not get a full ride. These are very few and far between and mostly given to those considered to be in financial need. One of my son’s friends was dreaming of attending Berklee. He worked towards it, visited twice, auditioned and got in and then because he did not get “enough” money from them, he could not attend and he was crushed. Best thing is to take your time and visit your “schools of interest”. Actually good that you are starting off researching as a Sophomore as you will not be rushed to attend all the schools as the last minute. If your son is like mine, he will know where he FITS. It will change from visit to visit but in the end you will know! Good luck!
@drummergirl - I posted a really “dry” version of the facts. I thought of some of the different perspectives one could take - from thinking that S is just super awesome, to thinking that it is standard recruiting and marketing words that were spoken to S, to worrying about how our possible responses could bring benefit or harm. Yes, S is already working with 2 bass instructors who are aware of each other - 1 recommended the other, so that is super smooth sailing there. At this time, S is probably not poised to take advantage of the offer, but maybe later.
I think you strike a nice balance between pride and rationale. And I think your son might be headed for a more competitive program than ABC, based on your posts. One of my son’s friends, a jazz bass player, travelled all over visiting schools and ended up auditioning at only four: NEC, Eastman, Oberlin and the New School. He did visit Calif schools, but not UNT. My (amazing) drum instructor went to UNT and had a great experience. He then went on to NEC for graduate studies.
William Paterson has the potential for merit money above and beyond any other state school we’ve looked at. If accepted to the Honors College, there is a $6k scholarship that goes with that, plus general academic (Trustee)awards range up to another $6. There are many types of music talent awards (based on audition); these can be a few hundred dollars or Music Trustee Awards can be in the several thousand dollar range. Definitely worth checking out. Small program (85 undergrad/graduate students), 1 in 6 or 1 in 7 are accepted, depending on instrument.
@GoForth, you have a smart, talented kid. I am just now noticing this is not your most recent post, so I may be behind in your process. But here are my 2 cents:
Yes, as a smart, talented student, your S could attend UNT for very little $.
Most of the music lesson teachers I have asked in Texas will steer kids away from UNT for an undergrad degree because of the number of graduate students there. UNT is easily commutable from anywhere in the Dallas metro. Grad students there have often been in the industry for years and have jobs teaching in the high schools and area colleges (and gigging on the side with area orchestras and bands). So the competition for top UNT jazz bands is fierce and may not even be possible during undergrad years.
Secondly, if/when your smart S becomes disillusioned or changes his mind about music being his soul (pun intended?)
purpose, and decides to venture into other possible majors, he may feel like he is in high school again, as the overall academic reputation and rigor (outside the music school) may not meet his needs.
Your post above is missing the line item for attending MM grad school - which seems to be the next step for almost all aspiring musicians these days - performing and/or teaching at the college level.
Ahh. . . teaching . . . not sure you have mentioned that job prospect for your S. That is the one that becomes the most logical for aspiring musicians IMO. If he detests the idea, then keep all options open. Many here will recommend a dual or double degree.
My quick story about my S just for reference:
2 time Texas All State musician on 2 different woodwind instruments. Learned about DCI his sophomore year. Auditioned for his dream corps junior and senior year. Made his dream Corps senior year and missed the last 3 weeks of school his senior year including prom (flew home for graduation) to move in with DCI in Ohio. Had an amazing life changing summer marching a brass instrument with a top 8 corps. I mean AMAZING. Wants to march DCI at least one more summer.
Moved into college (1 week after returning from DCI finals) at our top state school as a music performance major on his woodwind instrument (that he ignored all summer). Every musician at college is a former All State musician. The grad student that they all idolize - playing ability and skill - has been in grad school for 3+ years. She may land an orchestra job, maybe. She has been in school for 7+ years!
My S decides over the course of his freshman year that double majoring at this U - with music performance - not feasible (as he has never been interested in music ed). And he does not enjoy 4 hours a day of practice on this instrument (hates the isolation), and he is truly a small fish in a big pond.
What he really enjoys is his hobby music endeavors like the U marching band - on yet another brass instrument. He is working hard now to keep his grades high enough to internally transfer to the business school on campus. (This U does not make this easy - watch out for that too.)
The marching band is made up of all majors - so he found some like-minded people there. They all love music. They were all All State musicians. Many march DCI corps. Few are music majors (except the music ed kids). The music performance kids are discouraged or self select out of marching band, so they can spend more time in practice rooms. Lots of Business and Engineering majors.
Their love of music can take them down many paths. We are happy that he is finding his own way. Circuitous at times, but his own way nonetheless!
Enjoy your S’s last few years at home, and enjoy this journey into his next step!
Proper steps for preparing for a college music major (electric and double bass) have mostly been corroborated among mainstream collegeConfidential advice and other sources of info we have found among working musicians. We (S and I) now feel like we are in the correct ballpark with the overall plan. There are now some refinements that we can think about, and here is one that could use some opinions:
What to do during the junior high school year (fall 2016 - spring 2016):
A) play weekly with youth symphony orchestra’s jazz group
B) play twice monthly in well-attended all-age “open mic” cafe-based jazz event and use the extra time/money from not doing ‘A’ to do something else.
The commute to ‘A’ is sort of harsh at 1.7 hours each way, and there is a tuition. There theoretically is a chance to combine that commute with a private lesson. S’s jazz private instructor is soon moving much further from us, so some sort of extended commute might be baked into the pie no matter what.
The commute to ‘B’ is very easy and cheap. It is not structured for instruction, but it is real public performance with a variety of players.
Private instruction in classic and jazz (2 instructors) is assumed to continue on regardless of ‘A’ or ‘B’.
Any thoughts?
I don’t have any advice except music kids are expensive. But the benefits are endless. My son’s friends are not only musically gifted, but ambitious, good grades do not get into trouble. It was a good investment.
@ goforth-
My take, fwiw, is it depends on how good the playing level is in A versus B. My son belonged to New York Youth Symphony and played in the main orchestra, but they also have a superb jazz program and the playing level was very high. The problem with ‘open mic’ nights is that the playing level is often all over the place, sometimes you get to play with some decent musicians, other times you are playing with people who aren’t that great. Obviously, it depends on the nature of the open mic night, but if the jazz orchestra group is high level, your son may get consistently better performing opportunities there then he might at the open mic. While any performing opportunity is better than not performing, having something that is consistently relatively high level seems like a better thing to me.
The only other piece of advice as a music parent is that the fun does not end when they enroll in a music program, it is a gift that keeps giving lol (said partly seriously, partly tongue in cheek).
I say do both if you can! We were very fortunate to have the NEC Prep program nearby - ensemble, lessons, and courses. My son loves it. But I won’t even bore you with all the other varied music he’s involved in. It’s good experience for a jazz bassist to play in smaller ensembles and with new folks. It will help him in his auditions too.
It is hard for me to know the playing level of A. A is MYA.org. We really don’t know of anything “better” in the Chicagoland area.
However, in a spontaneous discussion with S last night, S finally saw that HS band might be worth dropping the junior year so that he can focus more. This really would allow A and B.
Many of us, I think, have kids who had to stop high school music organizations. Some will say it is important socially, or it is important to contribute, but when music is the thing they love, it can become frustrating to participate in the high school band or orchestra, and it takes time away from more fulfilling musical opportunities.
Personally I think you need to think about what your son wants and what is best for his mental health right now and not get too caught up in what is the best “career” move. Too much emphasis is put on “achievement” and building that darn resume when what most talented teens really need is space and time to think and learn and get to know themselves and be creative. If A is something that your son really wants then the drive is not a problem because he will tolerate it and find a way to make it work. But if he is a bit indifferent or if he feels the commute is going to impact his ability to do other things he really wants to do then forget it. Too much emphasis is put on “should” or this theoretical idea of what one must do to get ahead. Assuming your son is committed and studying and practicing and has friends and is happy then the rest will come. Not enough emphasis is put on mental health for teens which includes things like having free time, getting enough sleep, time to eat healthy and time to spend on relationships with family and friends. If you teach your son balance then once he gets to college he will be well prepared to take advantage of every opportunity there is for him. If you just push him with this idea that he will land somewhere magical where his career will just take off you will mislead him and he will burn out.
I grew up in classical music and my son is in jazz. Very different. My son plays in regional big bands because, well, that’s what they mostly do with high school kids BUT if he’s ahead of the curve, it’s because of the jazz combo program at his own public high school. Jam sessions can be OK but will probably get old quickly on their own, but they’re good for making connections with other musicians. It’s a way to get invited to sit in on established combos, maybe find like-minded musicians to form a combo yourself.
For MYA, the obvious thing is to join the Big Band but I would definitely look into their combos. It’s in the combos where kids really learn how to improvise (no playing the same solo every take), how to really listen to each other (no conductor). For a bass player, the role of the rhythm section and their importance, becomes really clear. It’s ironic that jazz, which might seem like just a string of solos, is actually a more collaborative format than classical, but that’s a subtle point that high school students rarely get taught.
Most jazz teachers will emphasize listening almost as much as playing. The “level of playing” of the other musicians, even in a big band, doesn’t have as much of an effect as each player having an understanding (and agreement) of what the group wants to say. So I wouldn’t worry about that as much as finding a group with a director who explains and teaches those aspects of jazz.
My son’s a junior, still plays in all the school groups (combo, big band, symphony band, marching band.) He was also playing varsity baseball and ended up giving that up this year and it was a really difficult decision. He plays in two regional big bands outside of school and his combo does 2-3 gigs a month. It’s definitely too much and he’s always tired, but it’s the life of a musician. I don’t push either way as long as his grades aren’t affected.
I tend to lean toward the question of “what does you son really want to do?” I think the analysis you have done is great! And as a big planner type, I don’t want my other comments to take away from all the good work you are truly doing for your son!!! I would keep it up. There’s a lot for a parent to learn in “guiding” a kid in performance.
But in the end the decision has to come from him and him alone (which may be impossible bc he will most likely play off your feelings/emotions at his age). He has to go to his “gut” for his decision. I think with performance kids it’s important to teach them to trust themselves. Trust their gut bc honestly there are no clear paths and if they don’t learn to trust themselves and make the best of their decisions, it can be difficult for them to “know” what to do in the future. Knowing has to do comes from understanding themselves (a tall order at his age so that’s where the “guidance” of parent comes in). However I would recommend keeping his path flexible - maybe one semester at a time. So my recommendation is let him decide on his own either A or B and just see how it goes. If it doesn’t work, he’ll be the wiser for it. If it does, yay!
I say this as a slightly guilty parent of too much planning! I still do it (can’t help myself) but I rarely vocalize it anymore to my daughter to give her space to find her own way. I wish I would have learned this lesson a little earlier. Short-term guidance. Long-term locked lips. It’s his future so he needs to practicing making decisions about it.
I agree totally that it also has to be up to your son and what he feels would work for him. My son made a lot of decisions during his musical path, and in the end it was about him.We homeschooled him when going to school was working against the path he wanted to go in, he stopped doing a very prestigious youth symphony because he had the orchestra experience at the prep program he was in, and the time spent with the yo would have taken time away from practicing, plus also in the fall watching football:).
With school programs, there are those who extol the virtues of school programs, how music students will be part of that community, they ‘owe it to the school’ and so forth,others like myself who are a lot more skeptical of school programs benefits (a lot of top level music students don’t play in the school programs, sometimes because of time, sometimes because the playing level is so low that it hurts their own playing, some because school music directors can turn tyrannical when they have talented kids in the program), in the end if the school program gives your son opportunities, to play in small ensembles with other kids decently talented, then it may be worth doing, but if doing the outside stuff would give him more benefits, do that.