Soo…we took a tour of a few colleges this past week…and two colleges specifically mentioned that they can recognize kids that have been coached. They mentioned that this is not what they are looking for…and that kids are coming in almost over coached and that they are not seeing the real raw talent and person that they are looking for. Arrgghhh. I was really not going to use a coach for my daughter, but after reading this board it sort of swayed me to consider hiring one…now after hearing this at 2 different schools…I’m so confused…just goes to show as with anything, no one really knows what they are looking for in that audition room except those holding the audition…
We also heard this from a faculty member at a school. We aren’t using a coaching service. My D has an acting instructor/mentor who is helping her with monologues and her voice teacher is well versed in song selection for auditions as she has been thru the process with others etc. that being said I think as long as you keep the “coaching” (I hate that word lol)to just general stuff like helping choose appropriate monologues and songs that fit your child’s voice etc and shows their potential and their best then you’ll be ok. I wouldn’t let a coach tell my kid what to wear to etc and I would watch if they are trying to make your kid into some cookie cutter version and not showing the kid that YOU know. You have been around your kid for years and you probably could tell if your kid was being over coached. The bottom line is at the end of the day the auditors on the audition will
Probably make their decision in a few
minutes anyway and as long as your kid does their best that’s all you can ask for.
Whole process is the biggest crap shoot ever…
Some schools may say that - but if you look at the results of the students who use MTCA, College Audition Coach, Dave Clemmons and others – I have to say their results speak for themselves. Many of the kids who have worked with these coaching services are getting into multiple programs. And some are probably getting into the schools who said this to you.
The best coaches (and I believe all of the above are good ones) let each student’s unique personality shine. They find material that shows off their best talents. And they teach them to be confident in themselves during the audition process. So they should not come off like anyone else at auditions. They should not appear “coached”. They should come across as prepared and confident. As @theaterwork said, you will be able to tell if your child is appearing too “coached”. That is not the goal of any coach. Call them a teacher or mentor instead of a coach and we don’t have all of this uproar about coaching.
Yes, coaches give advice on what to wear. (as do voice and acting teachers by the way) But they do not prescribe a uniform. At least from our experience, they tell them to be neat, clean, comfortable and to not wear anything that distracts from their performance. For some that may be a jewel toned dress. For others, it may be pants and a flowy top. Some boys may like a tie. Others may prefer a sweater vest or a plain shirt. The choice is certainly theirs. Coaches want each student to shine on their own. Good coaches are not trying to create students who are cookie cutter images of each other.
If you are feeling uncertain about the process, there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking help from a college audition coach. For many students, a coach offers similar advice to what an acting teacher, or a voice teacher who helps you pick out and prepare material for your auditions would - but, as in our case, we did not have anyone locally familiar with the college audition process to provide such advice. So we went with a coach.
Despite what the programs say about “coached” kids, all programs accept students who have been coached and who have not been coached. Ultimately, what really matters is you and what you do in that audition room.
You do not have to have a coach to get in to an MT program. But having a coach is not a bad thing either. As with all things MT, do what works best for you.
I might venture to guess that it depends on the school. If you look at Mary Anna Denard’s website- a LOT of her kids get into some highly regarded schools- so she must know what they are looking for. On the other hand, she has very few students accepted at other highly regarded schools. Whether that was fit, general smallness of class, or that the school doesn’t like evidence of coaching is imossible to say. Since there are a large number of programs that attend her “moonifieds” I would say that those schools don’t have an issue- but perhaps others do.
Having not been through the process yet, I think what I would be most looking for help from a coach is which schools to apply for. The choice is overwhelming… and whittling list down to 12 or 20 is pretty daunting. Having someone who has experience with helping others through the process seems logical to me.
UGH. It is all a crap shoot!
I think a coaching service could def be helpful in helping with college choices like " this school is known for a tough dance call so gear up!" Or “this school really likes to interview you at auditions so be prepared for questions” etc.
I think if you had absolutely no one to help your kid at all with monologue choice and prescreen stuff etc then a coaching service would be very helpful. Especially if they are in your neck of the woods and you can swing it financially plus meet in person …Just pick and choose what you want them for as much as possible.
I always think that your kid should dress appropriately but as themselves in an audition. I mean common sense says don’t show up in a sweatshirt lol but if a girl wants to wear dress pants As opposed to a dress I think that’s cool etc. cause people like to see your personality to some degree. Not tons of jewelry etc but a well placed necklace , a sentimental item is nice, etc
My D takes a certain pendant with her to auditions that was given to her by someone who passed away and she freaks out if it’s not there <3
@DVCmember, you need to parse what they are saying. The programs don’t give a lick if you spend your money on professional coaching nor if you don’t. Why would they even have to know unless you tell them? Raw talent doesn’t mean virginal talent. What they will care about is authenticity in the room. Are you true to the character you are representing in song, your monologue or dance? If you present yourself as someone that is only capable of parroting moves that were learned from a coach, they can spot it immediately or certainly can test for it by asking you to mix things up a bit.
A coach cannot beat true authentic talent out of a student who has got it and they also cannot inject authenticity into a student who just doesn’t have the innate ability to bring it to character. Now that doesn’t mean that a truly authentic actor couldn’t screw up an audition or learn some bad habits from a coach. It also doesn’t mean that a student who really doesn’t have the ability to be authentic couldn’t get lucky and slip under the radar. There are plenty of examples of both things happening both in college auditions and out in the working world.
The schools will range in what they are willing to accept which is a natural consequence of demand for their program as well as what they value. Some schools will accept a lower bar overall because they have to in order to fill out their ranks. Some schools will accept the killer singer who just cannot act. Some might take the killer dancer who cannot really sing. Or whatever combination and whatever desire for a particular type drives their decision process in the real world. Few schools (maybe only Juilliard) are in a position to expect it all. Nonetheless, it makes complete sense for a school to tell you on a tour that they want to see the real you, not the over-coached you so they can evaluate your fit for their program. That is not a statement against coaching. They are just telling you that they want to see YOU, not a parrot and they can spot the difference.
Also PS: I agree with vvnstar above that undoubtedly there are heavily coached kids in the programs that told you about over-coaching. Also, for the record, we did not hire a professional coach.and nor do I think it is remotely necessary if you inform yourself about what is required.
Re post #3. – Just FYI, Mary Anna (College Audition Coach) only posts on her website the final decisions of her students as to what schools they will attend. She does not post all of her students’ acceptances like some other sites do. Her students typically are accepted to many, many more schools than what you see online. So if you don’t see a program represented, do not presume that none of her students were accepted. Rather, assume none chose to attend that school that year.
If you have a school in particular you want to know about as far as how many of her clients apply and get accepted, just ask her. We always found her to be very forthcoming and informative.
Also - remember that a coach’s job is not to improve your talent. Rather, it is to prepare you for the college audition process so you are able to confidently audition and to help you showcase what talents you do have to their very best whether you are bound for Juilliard or your local state university. Coaches represent a broad range of clients and not all are bound for top tier programs. And that’s ok. Part of the coach’s job is to help their clients find programs that really suit them.
I will say it again, coaches are not necessary to get into an MT program. But for those who need assistance navigating the process, they can be very helpful.
@vvnstar- that is good to know about the website, and it illustrates even more closely Mary Anna’s connections (knowing what they want etc) for certain schools. For some- there seems to be 1/3 - 1/2 if the entering class that used her- and for Tx St- she worked with 12… Which could be (based on numbers from previous years) almost the ENTIRE freshman class. So if Tx St was my kid’s #1, she would seem a great resource. But there are only 2 students who are attending Boston University (not an MT program I know- but a significantly larger class) so there is that.
Also- idk if things on site a fully up to date. There are at least 2 kids on NYU link who are NOT freshman- they are sophomores. (One is from home area and other did a show with my kid at NYU last year)
@toowonderful, Mary Anna has changed her website to reflect results from a range of years. I believe it is the classes of 2017 - 2020’s results now so it’s not surprising that there are not just freshman listed.
Ditto on the Texas State numbers. Those are students from previous years as well as the incoming freshman class.
Thanks @halflokum - I did not know she was now using a range of years. However, I think her dates are off – I just took a quick look and, for example, my D is in the class of 2017 and neither she nor any of her fellow Moo Crewers that I know from her audition year are reflected in the current list. So I think at most the students posted are in the classes of 2018-2020. A little confusing. But again, the list does just reflect final school choices - not all the schools to which students were accepted.
@vvnstar, as someone that is now maintaining a website - a skill I’ve learned late in life… it doesn’t surprise me that dates and data can be off on anything that is a moving target. Fall asleep on the job for one second and already things are outdated.
But just to round out the discussion, there is no such thing as a website that reflects the universe of school choices for people that go through this process without a coach to give an unbiased sampling of comparative outcomes. CC data won’t provide it either. It is inherently biased towards coaching at this point.
So really all you can conclude from any of these coaching websites in terms or results is that the students that hired these coaches ended up with options. More options? Fewer options? The same number of options? Who knows and compared to what? Compared to people who prepared without a professional coach? Compared to not doing the preparation work to be competitive in the application/audition process because you don’t want to figure it out on your own, or don’t trust yourself or just can’t?
There is no data on the “on my own” (queue the music) crowd but my finger to the wind, non-scientific testing results would say that if you don’t want to or don’t know how to, hiring out someone to help drive the preparation process is better strategically than showing up not really understanding the game. And… you can also show up having prepared on your own and find a mostly level playing field.
I think colleges see this whole thing from a very different perspective. I remember quite clearly when Ralph Zito (head of Syracuse BFA program) said his #1 advice to parents of potential students was “Stay off of college confidential - that place will drive you crazy”. To be honest- from far on the other side- I can see what he was saying. I read CC for nearly a year before I posted for the 1st time- there seemed to be so many “terrifyingly” skilled people. (already had equity cards, had won awards I didn’t know existed, were accepted to 10+ schools etc) As much as I believed in my kid- I didn’t know if she would measure up - and I was hesitant to join the conversation. While I gleaned invaluable advice and support (if only to realize I wasn’t the only person stressing) to be honest - I might have felt less stressed if I hadn’t known everything you can learn obsessively reading old threads…
None of that has anything to do with coaching - but the comment about CC, and I imagine about coaching- show that colleges might have a different take on things than we do
Just like everything in this process, coaching is an individual journey.
Some families cannot afford it and that’s fine. There are books, like Mary Anna Dennard’s I GOT IN, that can give a great overview of the process.
And, if those families that cannot afford coaching (or don’t want to spend the money) have a supremely talented student and/or a student with good audition training resources (i.e. a PA high school or experienced mentors in their community), they will probably do fine w/o a coach.
Some families can afford coaching and still have a supremely talented student and/or a student with good audition training resources, therefore the coaching is only a supplement to already good talent and preparation. (In this instance, could an “over-prepared” student seem “over coached?” I don’t know.)
Where I think a coach hits the sweet spot is for a student from a high school w/o a lot of experience in the process – i.e. a school where not a lot of alumni have matriculated to BFA MT or Acting programs in recent years. This process is VERY specific and there are a lot of specific requirements that the regular school counselor or drama teacher won’t be familiar with unless you have outside help.
IMHO coaching would also be very helpful for a student who has busy working parents who may not be able to devote the tremendous amount of time that this unique process requires – a coach could help keep the student on track for all the i’s that need dotting and the t’s that need crossing.
It’s been a few years since we went through it, but I cannot imagine going through the process without Mary Anna Dennard – we had absolutely no role models, no audition prep resources and no ideas even where to begin – plus we were kind of late to the game, only starting after end of junior year.
I’ve said it before – we would have been the family to make all the mistakes – bad monologues, bad song choices, bad headshots – none of which were right for age/type. We literally knew NOTHING. AND – we didn’t even know about some of the top programs offering BFA MT – Mary Anna literally told us about Pace. (And now I have a Pace grad.)
So that’s my take. Your mileage may vary.
Coaching was invaluable to us because it explained the process to us. As a result, my child felt more comfortable and all he had to do was go out there and “be himself” so to speak. In our particular case the “coaching” was at a minimum but the information and knowledge was first rate, and crucial.
@toowonderful you bring up a valid point about how colleges see things. But it isn’t about whether or not you read CC or hire a coach, it’s about what you do with what you get out of either of these support resources.
I learned everything I needed to know about the process for free in CC. Like @mttwinsinCA below, I started late and knew NOTHING. I think I googled something like, “musical theatre college programs” and CC showed up in the search. Then I clicked on it and did a big gulp. To be honest, I had a few, “these people are crazy” moments right off the bat as well. I also had to ask somebody what “my D” meant because to me, that abbreviation meant something entirely different. (I encourage you all to read the many posts about “my D” and substitute the other meaning. It’s Mad Lib funny.)
If you let things colleges say, coaching or reading CC or other parents going through the college process drive you into the crazy zone, it is a mistake. You can just say no and remain grounded. It’s a choice. So read on while keeping a clear head. Hire a coach if you feel you need one and take what they have to say for what it is worth and make it work for you. Don’t hire a coach if you don’t want to or can’t. None of these decisions are fatal to the process if you keep your head. Just stay out of the crazy zone because there is no reason to go there. Seriously it’s just college. There are thousands of colleges. Everyone who wants to will land somewhere and even if the first landing doesn’t take, it’s all part of life’s journey. Hang in. This is the easy part.
I’ve shared part of this before, but I will again:
I have heard 4 faculty members/program heads/adjudicators at 3 different programs talk about how they could tell when someone had been coached (in all cases, especially by one “national coach/place”–I’m purposely being vague in my verbiage), and it wasn’t complimentary. They all used words such as “robotic,” “inauthentic,” and “over coached,” and there was eye rolling and exasperated sighing. (Two of these people had direct conversations with me about it. Two were sitting right next to us at a breakfast at Unifieds, and we very clearly heard their entire conversation–they did not try to make it quiet.) That said, every coaching person/company discussed on this forum, including the one they were talking about, has nice results for most people, and two of the three aforementioned programs take people who have been coached. I bet the third does, as well, but, since they were from an acting only program, I don’t know much about them. Part of it is that these people (2 of them, anyway; I don’t know about the 2 I overheard) are disgusted by the fact that coaches are needed, and they wish this process hadn’t ballooned like it has. But, that’s not the fault of the coaches; they are filling a need. And, when these coaches do their jobs well, they help the students present their most authentic selves and target places that would most likely fit them.
Does having a coach affect people’s results? Who knows? In order to really know that, I think that
one would have to go through the process twice with the same auditioner in the same year with the same college list–once with a coach, and one without. Obviously, that can’t happen. (Students who don’t like their results their first audition year and don’t use a national coach that first year but do the second year have other factors–maturity, artistic growth, experience–that also affect the results.) I’ve seen people get great results with or without coaches and not stellar results with or without. I think the true value comes with the support that coaches offer, not with the odds of acceptance being higher. This is a nutty process, and it’s nice to have an expert there who knows the ins and outs.
But, yes, people will say to stay off CC or not get a coach or make sure your auditioner stays off the auditioners’ FB page… You know what? I absolutely needed CC, and we also absolutely loved having a national coach, which D lightly used (Chelsea Diehl). In fact, I wish we had hired her earlier, but, financially, it was hard to pull the trigger, plus, one of D’s local coaches (who is closely tied to a nice program) was a bit scornful of the national coaches. (We didn’t hire Chelsea until August/September of D’s senior year.) I learned so much from CC and had much clearer, more level-headed expectations of the process and possible results (artistically, academically, and financially). My D’s year, the majority of people had D’s background (professional experience, no Broadway or national tours–because I never had her go for that–not that there is anything wrong with that–but I did regret not knowing about Young Arts), and only 1 or 2 (boys) who seemed to get in everywhere. So, I’m sure that helped. It also helped that others besides D weren’t going for the “big 3.” I can see that, if it seemed the majority on CC had Broadway experience or were YA winners or were only going for and getting into the tippy top tiers, I would’ve felt differently. And, with Chelsea, D felt clearer about her college list, chose monologues suggested for her that she liked much better than the ones she had, and received invaluable, personal support throughout the process. I’m so glad we had her. Of course, even with CC, Chelsea, and D’s wonderful local coaches, I almost went crazy with it all sometimes, notably during the waiting for results time, when I would’ve gone a little batty whether or not I was on CC or had the support of amazing coaches, lol!
One of the things that fascinates me about Coach/No Coach - particularly in reference to national coaches like Moo, Clemmons et al - is that to me it’s the most divisive subject in the college theater world - ESPECIALLY as it relates to MT. There are other things out there BA/ BFA, Bigger program/Smaller porgram, conservatory/non etc… but nothing else seems to elicit this much heat. Perhaps because it’s fairly binary - you either use a coach or you don’t. (I understand that there are many levels/layers of coaching possible)
Not trying to hijack the thread - but does anyone else agree with me? And why is this part the thing that puts people up in arms?
I think there’s a difference between a kid who has been COACHED and a kid who has been coached. Like I’ve heard of an instance where a coach actually went into their student’s closet and chose exactly what they are to wear, assigned them monologues and songs, and even told them where to apply. As for Dave Clemmons, who my daughter used, I’d say he is more of an advisor/mentor than a coach, although he did give some excellent direction to D (including the requirement that she read plays and choose her monologues herself, though he would suggest potential playwrights to consider), guided her/us through the process, offered assistance from someone who could help proofread and discuss essays w/her, provided valuable resources, and serious moral support throughout the process. He was basically available on an as-needed basis & we took advantage of him quite a lot.
I’d take what they said with a grain of salt - but probably would interpret the suggestion that “they will know when a kid is coached” as they will know when a kid has been given material and told exactly how to do it w/o regard to what the material means to them v. a kid with a connection with their material and/or is self-aware during the audition process.
That said, not everyone needs an audition coach. We did because we were overwhelmed by all of the sources of information out there. And like @halflokum I had more than my share of “what strange alternate universe have I fallen into” moments when reading CC over the last 2 years. Do what feels right for your student and you will be fine.
^^^THIS!!!
I think this point is crucial as it pertains to both artistic coaches and to college counselors. The reason to use them isn’t that they increase your odds, but rather the support and assistance in helping with the process, along with their expertise, which may make it less overwhelming and easier to navigate.