Thoughts on Application list

Parents Forum
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First, I appreciate the help over a couple threads in the last year or so as my daughter’s college journey has played out. Now that we are essentially rounding third, and she has visited pretty widely, the focus is switching from finding schools to “building” the application list. I would appreciate thoughts on that aspect for those kind enough to share their time.

For background, UMC non minority female from a single sex catholic school in fly over country. The school does not pump a lot of students “back east” for college, so Naviance data is sparse at best for many schools on her list. Kenyon being a notable exception which becomes important below. Stats are an uw 3.9(ish) on a 93-100 scale (1 B+), 7 APs by the time she is done, 34 ACT (single sitting), maybe NMSF, school does not rank but certainly in the top 5% or so. Decent to good ECs. Lots of theater for this area, 2 school productions plus 1 or 2 community productions per year (I think she is in her 11th play right now). 3 year marching band kid (gave it up this year to perform in the play she is opening in tonight), 4 year jazz band, 4 year member/2 year president of key club, a few other random clubs, sings in the church choir, some volunteering but not a ton, works a couple shifts a week at a local restaurant beginning in junior summer. She is not a great writer, but does have a voice. Essays will be neutral at worst. Recommendations letters will be good, maybe really good.

The forming list is Wesleyan/Vassar early decision. One will be ED1 and the other ED2 if necessary. She is going back to each this fall for overnights to hopefully break the tie. Then Swarthmore/Tufts RD. To this point, the list is locked and she is going to apply to these four schools. The messy part comes next. There are five schools that we are calling “low matches” Kenyon, Bryn Mawr, Dickinson, Skidmore, Franklin and Marshall. These are schools where her stats are well above the 75th percentile and the last available data shows an overall female acceptance rate of at least 37% (excepting Kenyon, where the Naviance data shows that girls with her stats do well). There are two schools which are scholarship safeties, Loyola Chicago and Fordham. Fordham will be a safety if she makes NMSF. Loyola has a competitive scholarship, so we won’t know if it will function as a safety until after applications are in. Two “true” safeties, Canisus and Otterbein, round out the list. She loves each of the schools on the locked part of the list and is at least luke warm to mildly positive on each of the remaining schools. The issue is that the “true” safety schools are the schools she likes the least, and also are the most expensive, likely requiring some level of loans. The remainder of her list is populated with schools where it is likely she will not need to borrow money to graduate.

Her plan has been to apply to five or six schools, max. Her mother and I agree, and prefer that she do a few applications well rather than several poorly. So we have the four locked schools, plus a true safety (assuming no NMSF status) and then maybe either Loyola Chicago or one of her low matches. I am toying with the idea of telling her that instead of forcing her to apply to one of the true safeties, she has to commit to apply to at least three of the low match schools. While this would increase the number of total applications to seven, I also think it increases the chances that she lands at a place where she can truly flourish. Then again, I am nervous about the bottom of her list being schools like Bryn Mawr and Kenyon, because generally speaking admission to those places is not a push over. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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I’m under the impression that the Fordham NMF scholarship isn’t guaranteed if that matters. Also which campus and are you hoping for an invite to their Honors College?

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Why do you need to make so many decisions up front or at this point? National merit will be announced in September, so you will have that information well before she needs to finalize her list. She’s applying ED so by the time regular application deadlines roll around either she will already be accepted and this is moot, or she won’t be accepted, in which case that’s a bit of a wake up call, and she can at that point complete a few more applications–just make sure the school gets the paper work in before Xmas break on those applications in case she needs to actually file them after her ED decision. If she is not accepted ED, that will be a confidence downer and you will all probably feel better with a more inclusive list even if it means spending a lot of time over xmas writing some more essays… Is there a safety she can get an early decision on–that is very comforting and could cut down on the total number of applications she needs to submit in the event she doesn’t get in ED.

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@Dolemite, if the NMSF scholarship at Fordham is now competitive and not guaranteed, that would be inconsistent with what we were told last summer. And she is looking at the Rose Hill campus. Assumedly she would want to be in the Honors College if she attends Fordham.

@mathyone. I get your point about making early decisions. But my daughter would really like to have the bulk of her applications done by November, or in any event before the ED 1 decision date for a number of reasons. She feels like she has a good shot at the lead in the fall play, which runs in late November/early December, there is a good chance we will be out of state with family over the holidays, etc. I get why she wants to be done early, even if it complicates things. Plus, if she is going to apply to several of her low match schools, I think a couple, particularly Kenyon and Bryn Mawr, might merit another visit. Not only do both recommend and consider interviews, but both schools had something she liked and disliked at her first visit. I would think a second visit might clarify things a bit for her in that respect.

Thanks for the responses.

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Check out this thread on the Fordham board: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/fordham-university/1870233-merit-scholarships-at-fordham-p1.html

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Nicely analytical, Ohiodad51.

If the hs doesn’t routinely send kids back east, no one knows if that’s choice, how the student structures the app/supps, or something with how the high school supports applicants. Eg, you say her recs will be good, but she can still make sure she’s close enough to those teachers to get better than a generic “good,” make the right points about her strengths, curiosity, and how she goes beyond. (Not just a “nice kid, has her homework ready, is in x and y clubs.”)

Some of this also depends on where you are. Wes, Vassar, Swat and Tufts will get a good load of apps from the Chi area, eg, as will Kenyon.

So imo, the next task is to be sure you and she get as good a read on what those colleges will look for, each will be slightly different and need, so to say, a slightly different pitch in the CA essay and supps. Each should have ways of showing what they value in kids and their college community and you can often find what sorts of current students they brag about. And try to understand what her CA essay “should” convey.

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@Ohiodad51 As a student who went through the college process last year, I really appreciate your obvious involvement in the process with your daughter and your consideration for her time (and sanity :slight_smile: when it comes to application season. However, I think expanding the list to even 7 or 8 schools would be a great option for your daughter. That would allow her to apply to her four ‘locked’ schools, 1 or 2 low matches, and 1 or even 2 safeties. I know we’ve all heard stories about kids applying to 20+ schools and basically dedicating their senior year to college apps, but I promise a list of 8 schools will not consume her life. (source: personal experience, I applied 9 places)

Also, I know this wasn’t part of your question, but I thought I would throw in my two cents. I think it would be worthwhile to find at least one safety that’s also a financial safety. Its always nice to know you have something to fall back on if things change.

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@mandy563, thanks. My daughter actually thinks I am nuts, but as long as her boyfriend is afraid of me I will live with that.

@lookingforward, thanks and yes, I agree the next step is to make sure the app is tailored to project her best image based on what resonates with her with each school. That is a huge reason why I think she is right not to want to “shotgun” schools. And we have both been looking at what Wes and Vassar in particular highlight in their published material and in our visit. I am hopeful she can complete her planned overnight visits to both before her apps need to be done so she has the best picture of what she wants to stress. Slightly more difficult at Wes since there is no supplement and she will interview when she is there, but honestly I think she fits better there in any event. We will see.

For information, her high school does not generate a ton of apps to the east coast selective LACs. Last year there was one girl who applied ED to Tufts and will attend next year, and another who is going to Colby (not sure where or how she applied). A lot of the LAC apps seems to filter to Denison, Kenyon, Oberlin, Wooster, etc. For the most part the girls seems to stay within the region. We are in Ohio, and excepting Kenyon and Otterbein, none of the schools she is looking at show significant percentages of Ohio kids (all less than 3%), from which I am extrapolating that there are relatively few applications from our state. And she knows both teachers who will write her recommendations well, so I am hopeful she will get really good recommendations. I am just trying to stay neutral because I have no control over what they write and I know the competitive pool she is entering is deep.

Thanks again for the responses.

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I agree with the suggestion for 7 to 8 schools. Applications do get easier after the first few. My younger son actually put off writing his Tufts essays until January because he wanted to enjoy writing them. (They had an optional essay that year he wanted to have fun with.) Drove me crazy, but he was quite relaxed about it. He did end up getting in and attending so I can’t say he was wrong to take his time!

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You need to rethink the safety schools. Worst outcome (in my opinion) is to head off to a safety school AND have to take on more debt than you would have with one of your more attractive options. Very tough psychologically.

I also think the forced early deadline is a mistake. Not to say that she should be pushing send on New Year’s eve… but getting things out of the way early because you have other plans over Xmas is a bit unrealistic. If she has one Xmas in her life that doesn’t play out optimally because on December 21st she was finishing up an essay- well, she will survive and you will survive.

Why not go whole hog with her “locked” schools, and keep an open mind about the others until mid-December?

Then- go back to what she loved about the schools she loves. Give us a more thorough explanation of what and why, and perhaps we can help you with some affordable safeties that include some (even if not all) of those elements?

Do not get caught up in terminology. Low match/safety/ near match/ sort of a lock but not guaranteed- none of this matters. What matters is that at the end of the day, you guys go into New Year’s weekend knowing that there is at least one school she has applied to which you can afford where she is virtually assured of getting admitted. That’s the goal. Changing the nomenclature around doesn’t help this effort.

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Remember that the college’s deadline isn’t the only one that matters. The high school may also have deadlines for submitting requests for recommendations and transcripts. And the high school’s deadline will be earlier.

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Our first kid applied (and auditioned at) 7 colleges. 6 of those seven applications were submitted in October. The 7th in November.

Second kid applied to her top three schools by October. She asked to apply to a reach in January…and we had her apply to a parent choice as well in January. Those last two applications were a waste of time.

Both were really happy NOT to have college applications and essays hanging over their heads for the holidays (starting with Thanksgiving)…well except the January ones for kid 2.

And both told us later that the best thing they did was get those applications done ASAP once senior year started. They felt the could,actually enjoy their senior years…while they had friends still doing the college application thing.

@Ohiodad51 I would strongly suggest your kid find a rolling admissions or EA school to add to the list. Some rolling admission schools have applications up as early as…well…now. And results come very quickly.

You mention NMF status. What was your kiddo’s SAT score?

If your kiddo applies ED to a school…I would suggest they have all of the RD applications either submitted…or ready to,go. Simply put…if the kid doesn’t get accepted ED, it’s a lot,easier if everything is done…than regrouping after not getting accepted to the number one choice.

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@thumper1, her SAT was 1420, so it should fall within qualifying range although it is not as strong as her ACT. And you hit a great point about wanting to have all her apps done before results come back on the ED1 school. She has said repeatedly that she doesn’t want to scramble with apps if she is rejected ED1. Another factor is the school wants all apps completed by the end of the semester, and since the ED1 notification date is mid December, that will give her about a week, which will of course be during finals.

@blossom, I appreciate the point about not getting lost in the nomenculture, and in some ways that is what I am trying to work out in my own mind on this thread. And honestly it is very unlikely at this point that more schools are going to get added to the list. She has visited several, and has really thought hard about what she likes and doesn’t.

As to why not keep an open mind and fluid list until mid December, well that is really the rub. Leaving aside what I have already mentioned about activities, time line and logistics, the fact is she will not have any more “hard” information until mid December. She is a deliberate kid. I can’t fault that because she gets it from me. She is taking this seriously, maybe too much so, and at the end of the day does not want to feel rushed, or to make a decision under stress. That seems rational to me, fwiw.

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@Ohiodad51
Wow. You are organized.

I understand the desire to have apps done early. Your daughter sounds totally prepared to make that happen. But, will she also have a few days off at Thanksgiving when she could work on apps if she needs?

Assuming you have a good understanding of how you will pay for all of the schools on your daughter’s list, here are my suggestions.

Definitely apply ED1 to Vassar or Wesleyan by Nov 15. I think that she has a solid chance for ED1 acceptance, assuming her essays are well-written and show what she has to offer the school and why she wants that particular school. Her stats are good. Hopefully the school counselor, teachers and other recommenders are on board with her goals and will write outstanding recs. Has she taken “the most challenging courses the school has to offer?” The counselor has to rate that question. Is there anything “extra” that your daughter might submit to showcase herself in addition to her application? Is she auditioning for anything?

If you have concern about money, consider applying to one in-state public college early.

Apply to Fordham EA by Nov 8 and get an answer on Dec 20. One or two acceptances before Christmas will be nice to have if she is deferred or rejected by her ED1 choice,

Apply to Loyola Chicago by Dec 1 to meet this safety school scholarship deadline.

Submit an EA app to Dickinson by Dec 1. They don’t answer until mid-Feb, but I always thought it was good to apply EA to any Match school (on child’s preferred list) where EA was an option.

Submit an RD app before Dec 1 to either Tufts or Swarthmore to show early interest, but not both. (See reason below.)

Why not submit more of the apps early? Because I think kids’ essays get better over time. She could try to have her ED2, remaining Tufts/Swarthmore, and one of her remaining RD Match school apps all ready to go before Dec 1, but just not submitted. That way, if she gets deferred or rejected by her ED1 school, she will have time to take a second look at those important apps over the Christmas holidays to see if any improvements are needed. And, she could add another RD app or two if she wanted. The ED2 and Swarthmore/Tufts RD are due Jan 1. Kenyon, Bryn Mawr, Skidmore, and Franklin & Marshall are all due Jan 15 RD.

With the college list she has, I think the following could be the right number of apps:

BEFORE DEC 1: 6
AFTER ED1 DECISION, if negative: 3 - 5 more (Reach & Match)

She will have a lot of choices.

My due dates above need to be verified.

Make sure that all recs and transcripts are submitted by the school before Christmas, even if she doesn’t end up applying to the additional schools. In reality, all that admin stuff could be done at the same time as the early schools.

Good Luck!

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If more than the federal direct student loans (i.e. would need parent loans or parent-cosigned loans), then it may be better to find more affordable safeties. An unaffordable school cannot be a safety.

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If they are affordable, and you can’t find any that she likes more, then devote more time to liking them. Sometime around January I started panicking that everywhere would reject me and just made a list for each safety about why I would love to go there.

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As an FYI…thanksgiving is November 24. Our HS requires two weeks notice to get their stuff sent to schools for applications. This would fall AFTER December 1 when applications are due for some schools for significant merit award consideration. Might even miss an ED2 deadline too.

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I strongly support your plan of interviewing for BrynMawr if she is interested in the school. For BrynMawr, the interview process takes place before the regular decision application deadline. I don’t know much about the rest of the schools that you have mentioned but I can tell you that BrynMawr decisions can sometimes be unpredictable, in particular for students who don’t interview.

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Agree with @ballroomdancer. In fact, all of those small colleges do want to know that your daughter is really interested. If she is in theater, she can probably interview well? If she is comfortable, do interviews wherever possible. Maybe try to do a few at colleges that she cares less about first. So she can be a little more experienced for her top choices. Can she schedule interviews for her other schools, besides Bryn Mawr, before she actually applies to them?

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@ucbalumnus, no school on her list will require her to take the maximum in fed loans, based on our best estimates. One of the few absolutes in this process on both the parent and kid side is a hard cap of 15k in loans for undergrad. Her list has been built with that goal in mind. The problem with the true safeties is both likely will require 10 to 15k in loans, depending on outside scholarships, of course. The rest of her list we think will require no or negligible loans, again based on the information available at this point.

@ballroomdancer and @MOMANDBOYSTWO, yes our intention is that she interview at each school where she applies, if available. We hope she will interview well. She is an engaging kid, and again recognizing the competition is fierce, she holds her own in groups of kids attending highly selective schools. By November, she will have visited each school on her list, several more than once, especially if she applies from the low match list. Tufts and Vassar do not schedule interviews until the application is submitted, which argues for submitting those apps earlier rather than later. Kenyon only offers on campus interviews, which again argues for deciding whether she will apply there some time before late November/December.

And you both hit the nail on the head concerning unpredictability at some of these schools. That’s my conundrum. Trying to protect against this variability while still having her do few enough apps to put her best foot forward. I am going to call that the @lookingforward quandary. And then of course there is the original question, should I tell her to dump the true safeties because they are more expensive and at the bottom of her list to give her another couple bites of the apple at schools where her stats put her well over the 75% line but the numbers show admission is generally not a shoe in like Dickinson (50% female acceptance rate), Bryn Mawr (39% acceptance rate) and F&M (39% female acceptance rate).