Thoughts on school rankings

[p43531]

<p>

if a school has a very high yield (the percentage of admitted kids who choose to matriculate and a very low attrition rate (the percentage of kids lost each year for one reason or another), it seems to me that it’s a school that knows itself well, that admits well, that also manages well the challenges of early independence in a competitive environment.

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<p>…unless of course, said school (which presents the above statistics) selected a student body that will be willing (and mentally able) to tough it out through anything imaginable during their years there to get the coveted parchment and that admission to a top college. In which case it is a testament to the students, not the school. Kind of like BUD/S for selecting Navy SEALs: if you are admitted, you go, and if you do not drop out, well, all honor is yours, because instructors will try mighty hard to change your mind.</p>

<p>Just a thought.</p>

[Parlabane]

<p>@TP - good point - too often the yield and attrition get glossed over, but they’re genuinely important. Big5, sometimes the data is tough to get. Schools that have good results in these areas are always happy to publish or discuss the results. Schools that do not have good results will frequently hide or “play” with the stats, or have counterarguments why they’re not important.</p>

<p>@p43531 (Ohio?) - that is one dark way to look at it. I want my kid to get a great education, but not to be unhappy for four years. There’s something to be said for negative reinforcement on occasion, but I vote for an experience that’s well balanced and largely positive.</p>

[p43531]

<p>

that is one dark way to look at it. I want my kid to get a great education, but not to be unhappy for four years. There’s something to be said for negative reinforcement on occasion, but I vote for an experience that’s well balanced and largely positive

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<p>I don’t think it is dark, it was just one of the possibilities not mentioned. Why assume that individual attrition (or yield) rates, unless long-term, confirmed & comparable, and available for all schools, have much meaning? I personally could not agree with you more about the desirability of a jolly four years!</p>

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@p43531 (Ohio?)

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<p>Oh, no - this is not a zipcode at all.</p>

[grinzing]

<p>4 years of a good experience vs. an unpleasant one is very hard to gauge, even applying the best research and inputs a parent can. We used all the tools available to us, S had more than one option after March 10, and we deliberated hard–but unfortunately, S has had a very rough ride at BS. At the end of the day, IMO, BS is very stressful and compounding the normal high school difficulties that most teens go through (especially in this environment–see Race to Nowhere), and they have to navigate it largely alone (yes, there are teachers/coaches/advisors on campus but they are very busy and are not there just for your kid (i.e. they are not YOU parents). I look back on the decision and say: “were we nuts to let a 14 yr. old attempt to handle so much?” For us, I don’t think I attribute it to the particular school being a better or worse fit, b/c all of the schools we were choosing from were very similar–academically top BSs that in reality are a hotbed of pressure. Sorry to be a bummer, but need to put it out there.</p>

[p43531]

<p>

But they can probably do a better objective reading OF your child than you can.

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<p>Big5, I am uncertain how consultants (whether headed by a former DEGAS administrator, a trained clinical psychologist, or Magnum PI fishing for inside information) could better differentiate between Andover and Exeter than the applicant herself after return visits, talking with current students and parents with current parents? I am unconvinced that consultancies like the Aristophanes Circle can surpass an outstanding parent. Educational consultants may know a lot. So do my cobbler and my cardiologist.</p>

<p>The above would be the only juncture where I could see such help useful. But earlier in the process while merely browsing dozens of schools?</p>

<p>All that calls for is an easy-to-use database, which takes time to compile and update, but little time to use. Immediately afterward, you yourself, not your agents, are off to a few target schools: their websites and real sites, actually meeting people. If other parents care to share their own stories, all the better (unlike many others here, I still am uncertain about meaningful differences between Andover and Exeter, after talking with several graduates and teachers of each school, wading through literature present, past, and ancient, and contrasting the two on endless facets of boarding school life. I did find some real differences in their course offerings! But everyone has their own experiences and opinions, and they form their own.)</p>

<p>Once the choices are narrowed from several dozen to a handful of schools, it becomes a personal quest to select the final few that receive applications from your child. Delegating this to a consultant is not unlike letting a school counselor determine which college your daughter should apply to. Yes, the good doctor may recommend five miles a day, but it will be you hitting the road.</p>

<p>Please correct me if I am wrong, but consultants do not seem to specialize in raw-data database building. Their services center around “assessment”, “fit”, “optimizing” and lots of talking. Incidentally, how do “test interviews”, “role-playing”, “optimization” and “coaching” help with what I am seeking here? Do consultants train applicants how to sip hot chocolate in a manner becoming St. Milo’s Academy vs the Hopscotch School? Regrettably, I lack faith that corporate approaches apply here. Though they make for catchy websites, and I surmise, respectable fees.</p>

<p>My own doubts with soi-disant experts notwithstanding, I am sure many people may find their offerings worthy.</p>

<p>

You appear to have principles at odds. You want the best information available, but you’re not willing to look at legal insider intelligence.

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<p>I do not follow. This assumes that on the high end some esoteric knowledge is available for purchase. There isn’t.</p>

[SevenDad]

<p>@43532: You had me at cobbler and soi-disant!</p>

[TheBig5]

<p>I wish you the very best in your quest.</p>

<p>I had the unusual opportunity 20+ years ago to participate in a joint PA/PEA program in Washington, D.C. where I lived and worked with 15 students from each school for 3 months, and that (admittedly anecdotal) experience made very clear to me what some of the significant differences were–at that time.</p>

<p>Neither school is right for my child, so for me it’s a moot point.</p>

<p>Consultants who have lived in the boarding school world for many years–most often far longer than any student or family will be directly associated–also offer a wide variety of anecdotal insights, not only into specific schools, their programs, environments, community history and so forth, but also into the dynamics that occur between the administrators of these schools in their joint alliances and programs (such as the one mentioned above). Data’s great, but only if you connect the dots in meaningful ways.</p>

<p>In the end, it’s quite a small world.</p>

[DAndrew]

<p>

I had the unusual opportunity 20+ years ago to participate in a joint PA/PEA program in Washington, D.C. where I lived and worked with 15 students from each school for 3 months, and that (admittedly anecdotal) experience made very clear to me what some of the significant differences were–at that time.

Tell us more please. I am curious if your observations still hold true today.</p>

[redbluegoldgreen]

<p>Grinzing, surprised no one has commented on your son’s experience. So sorry to learn this news. I agree that house staff and faculty are not always available or what marketing materials assert and in the end the student needs to navigate thru some very difficult waters alone sometimes.</p>

<p>Is/did you son stick it out? Agree that BS is a challenge for most 14 year olds. I often wonder if we should have waited one extra year before applying, but we wanted our son to have the 4 year experience of being in one high school for four years. Now looking back, that doesn’t seem like such a benefit vs. the maturity gained in one additional year. Just some thoughts.</p>

[sunrise1]

<p>We are thinking the same as to how many kids are mature enough to navigate BS at 9th grade? What are your thoughts and experiences? I think a K-9, 10-12 BS combination might be better.</p>

<p>RBGG, What benefits were you looking for that you didn’t see materialize in 9th grade year for your son?</p>

[p43531]

<p>

Grinzing, surprised no one has commented on your son’s experience.

</p>

<p>Oh yes, they have. Forum leaves no stone unturned, and people are heard. Unlike, alas, at some schools.</p>

<p>See:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/prep-school-parents/1078260-ideas-when-not-thriving.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/prep-school-parents/1078260-ideas-when-not-thriving.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/prep-school-parents/1080729-leave-absence-year-away-bs.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/prep-school-parents/1080729-leave-absence-year-away-bs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[redbluegoldgreen]

<p>sunrise - our son is actually excelling in 9th, and has made such a leap in maturity which continues…
but I wonder now, what if it hadn’t gone so smoothly? maybe it’s better to give kids that extra year at home with family. From other posts here, it seems 10th graders may have fared better in general. 10th grade may be early enough to get a full experience and take full advantage of a rigorous BS unless you had reasons that your town PS was hurting son’s or daughter’s education.</p>

[TheBig5]

<p>I asked all the AOs I talked to specifically about the 9th grade year (since I myself went in 10th). Biggest advantage is it is MUCH lower pressure across the board, so kids have a year to acclimatize, get to know faculty, students, the campus, etc…, etc… Also, it’s interesting, some schools immediately integrate 9th graders, others have separate facilities and so forth and treat the 9th grade year as virtually a separate program. </p>

<p>At the start of 10th grade there is NO gentle incline. It is pedal to the metal from the very start.</p>

<p>So it really depends on your kid. Some will benefit from that extra year at home with fam, some will benefit having that same year to ease into BS life. But either way 10th & 11 grades are where it ALL counts. If you are applying EA/ED in your senior year (in November!), your record is based virtually exclusively on the 2 prior years.</p>

[Princess_Dad]

<p>D2 went to one of the “top BSs” and had “no” supervision as advertised. Her advisor was on the admission’s staff and thus traveled most of the year so rarely saw her. She got “tagged” to others who often did not realize that she was “theirs for the week”.</p>

<p>The school had mandatory sit down dinners which she and a small group missed all eating at a Pizza place down the street.</p>

<p>She was the youngest member of her class - right on cusp (in fact, St Paul told her they would accept her for the “following year” due to her age). Was definitely not mature enough and had problems. Toward end of year, I had her advisor switched and that fixed all the problems. Came home for 10th and is doing wonderful. I felt close to suing the school, but while that would have won the war, probably would have lost the battle.</p>

<p>For D3, made a point that her school is smaller and has better watch and her advisor is present.</p>

[Princess_Dad]

<p>For those of you looking at schools. As people have said, don’t just look at the beautiful buildings of school A vs B. Yes it is nice to have air conditioning, etc - but look at the teachers. Look at how many of the students in AP French (for example) get 4s or 5s on the AP exam. If your student plays football, look at the football program. My D danced and we looked at the dance programs (and asked the dance teachers at schools what they thought about other programs). If music is a big thing for your child, does the school have a marching band. If he is a boy scout, can he continue to get his Eagle (which has more pull for colleges, than which school). </p>

<p>Finally, have him/her spend some time there without you and see if he/she is comfortable. Some schools are “designer clothes” and some are levis and some are uniforms. </p>

<p>Your child’s chance of getting into college x or graduate school y are more dependent on his/her getting good grades and being an “active” student which is more likely at a school they enjoy.</p>

[p43531]

<p>Princess’Dad - nice postings. Your experience resonates with my feelings about what works and what does not for each child. Instead of praising or excoriating any school in general, parents probably would do better to start from their own knowledge of the child, drawing on experience of others (family, friends, and especially good past teachers) then moving on to whether it even makes sense to contemplate a BS. Then narrow the group of potential schools carefully. For some, an aggressive filtering makes sense, for others, a large group of options may be more helpful.</p>

<p>And indeed, any able child will get in to a fitting college if she thrives in high school.</p>

<p><a href=“in%20fact,%20St%20Paul%20told%20her%20they%20would%20accept%20her%20for%20the%20%22following%20year%22%20due%20to%20her%20age”>quote</a>.

[/quote]

Q: is this a fact, or a paraphrase? That is, “accept” or “consider”?</p>

[flowers123]

<p>I’m bumping this up bkz I think it is a better discussion of rankings than I initiated. This was from before I was active on CC.</p>

<p>Cheers</p>