And as a cranky parent, I assert that Caucasian and ORM premeds won’t get a sniff from medical schools if their GPA is 3.6 or lower unless they have done some special research or have MCAT scores that beat the mean. Unless they want to be Pirates of the Carribean or go for a postgrad/postbac. Or join the military.
@Hamurtle There is always DO school.
Dad-I should have been clearer; I was referring to the poster who asserted that 80% of freshmen pre-meds wash out. Other than urban legend, there is no data to support this assertion.
Ham: Well, you can assert all you want, but you offer zero objective data to support this assertion. What proof do you that they won’t get a “sniff” from medical schools with a 3.6GPA? And based on your posts, you’ve never been through the medical school application process, so not sure why you insist on repeatedly making this assertion.
It is very difficult to get into medical school; there is no need to make baseless claims unsupported by any objective evidence.
Look at programs in your home state. If you are thinking of medical school you want to graduate with no debt from undergrad. Put some safety schools on your list. (that you would be happy to enroll at and can afford)
As raclut points out, DO schools have averages slightly lower than allopathic medical schools-but still impressive:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2018-aacomas-applicant-matriculant-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=28753a97_8
I would try and attend a school where you could graduate with little to no debt. I would also choose a school where you will get all or mostly A’s. For premed, I think it is helpful to be one of the stronger students at the school. I would not count on medical schools cutting you some slack because you are in the middle range at Emory versus being at the top at your state school.
Being a top student at your state school as a premed student is hard.
I think the primary reason is “population control”. It is similar to college admission that many students wanted to get into Harvard but the class size at Harvard is limited. If every self-claimed pre-med gets to submit their applications to AMCAS, med school admission offices would have to read/screen-out way too many applications, not to mention AMCAS need to verify way too many transcripts. Med school admission rates are below 10% AND those applicants already successfully pass the weed-out hurdle.
Your undergrad school name does carry some weight but it is usually in situation like 3.7 (state school) vs 3.6 (top school). However lots of students going to top school end up with horrible GPAs (like below 3.0). It is not easy to maintain 3.7 GPA in top schools (your peers are much smarter) while much more doable in average schools.
According to AAMC, for the most recent period available, there were there were 52, 777 applicants and 21,622 matriculants to US allopathic medical schools, which works out to a 41% acceptance rate.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf
This number, however, is not complete in and of itself. It only includes those who actually made it to the application stage; in other words, they’ve got all the required courses completed, have excellent grades, an excellent MCAT score, LORs, etc etc-and the applicants are willing to shell out the money(it gets expensive applying to multiple medical schools) and take the time to properly complete the initial application(and any secondaries).
There’s both self-selection(students realize they don’t have the GPA/MCAT to get in) or external selection(can’t get the committee letter, can’t pass a required course, etc) so quite a few students start out thinking they’ll apply to medical school but ultimately do not. There’s no agreed definition of who is a “pre-med” so there aren’t accurate numbers on how many start and how many finish, but it is well established that it is extremely difficult to get the numbers required to get accepted.
Pre-med everywhere is tough, as there are dedicated students at every school who very much want to attend medical school. If you’re serious about it, find a school you like and can afford(medical school costs are astronomical, so you’ll want to save as much money as you can). How things go from there is up to you.
Med school admit rates mask the number of kids who never got to the point of applying. When colleges report the number who get a med school acceptance, it’s only among those who get to that point, the right package, committee endorsement, etc.
The report I referred to was for JHU and is old, as I said. If anyone can find figures that specifically report number of freshman med hopefuls who don’t make it to even applying, please do share. But becoming a doc is a lot more than just wanting it. Often better to make kids aware of reality.
Why weed? Partly because there’s such a vast number of kids who “dream.” The number needs to be culled.
It’s always a good idea to address reality, but using numbers which have no basis in objective data is counterproductive. To what JHU report are you referring, and when was it issued? JHU currently has a lot of information for pre-meds(e.g. https://studentaffairs.jhu.edu/preprofadvising/wp-content/uploads/sites/33/2018/07/Guide-One.Fall-2018-2019.final_.pdf) but didn’t see anything claiming an 80% wash-out rate for freshmen.
And other than anecdotal information, there are no reports on the numbers because nobody can agree on a definition of “pre-med”. One only has to review the claims made by individual schools(some of which claim medical school acceptance rates of 75-90%) to see how easily the term “pre-med” can be manipulated.
As the poster said to have “asserted that 80% of freshmen pre-meds wash out,” that’s not what I wrote. I did say, “some” colleges. And referred to one, which has older data. Not going to link it. This is not an argument about how to get into med school. It’s up to the individual to learn what she or he can about how their possible UG targets treat premeds/premed courses.
This thread is about OP. His or her UG targets. Waiting for specific data that meets some stranger’s standards misses a vital aspect OP should consider.
He/she asked about the rep of the UG mattering. It’s not the prestige of the UG college, it’s the performance you can truly achieve there.
The colleges report number of applicants who get an admit to one of their top 3 med school choices. Not how many freshman began with med dreams and don’t make it to applying. You can assure OP “all things are possible” or offer perspective. Weeding can happen.
Your exact quote:
“But older reports suggest 80%+ of freshmen who want med school get weeded out of their dreams at some colleges.”
Do you have any objective data to support this?
You also wrote:
“The colleges report number of applicants who get an admit to one of their top 3 med school choices.”
Do you have a citation for this?
I’d suggest you check the link I provided; the number of applicants and matriculants was supplied by AAMC, not individual colleges.
I addressed these issues b/c you brought them up. It’s an internet board where anybody can say anything, but it’s entirely unproductive to issue unsubstantiated opinions, which is clearly what the 80% figure is.
Pre-med is tough, but there’s no reason to exaggerate how tough.
The med school averages to check - always start with where you may have most weight for admissions which is your home state. If Oregon is your home state, Oregon med school accepts 66% who are residents. Median MCAT is 512 and GPA of 3.74 and 3.7. The low end at 10%ile is 505, 3.4 and 3.29. Most people dont have a shot if they are not in the median level.
This is becoming a debate, which is both not allowed under TOS and not helpful to OP.
I also wrote, “There are no clear, current figures I know of.” You can google for background on both statements, re: weeding as an issue. Even within CC, you will find further info.
OP is asking about particular colleges. Her inclination against her state flagship may be a mistake. As I said, “some” colleges, which makes it important for him or her to not just assume.
When choosing an UG college, for premed, it IS important to consider where you can thrive. And any climate of weeding. Entirely different than how any applicants of what categories do subsequently get into med school.
So maybe we get back on track?
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
To be more accurate, remove the “becoming” in the above sentence. Let’s move along from debating the minutiae, please. Feel free to give opinions on the OP’s question (with rationale, if possible), but let the OP decide,or ask for clarification as needed.
Have a talk with your parents on how much they can afford to spend for your undergrad education and if they will be financially supporting you if you get accepted to med school. With the budget they give you develop a list of schools to apply to. I would not consider UC’s. I don’t feel NYU or GWU offer anything special for premeds that would justify paying that much money for undergrad.
@Hamurtle : No No No! Don’t think like that about your son! I had mentees in the 3.7s (usually 3.75-3.8) get interviews at top 20s. I still remember one who got an interview at Duke (and “ORM” BTW) and several other schools with that GPA (he had a 37 on the MCAT that trialed the 2015 style of MCATs). It depends on how strong the application is (this guy’s was indeed strong, especially since he was aiming for research focused medical schools). As for Emory or really any school, I am really reluctant to call courses “weed-outs” (as some students are more easily weeded out than others because they are easily deterred by an early B. The reality is, some B/B+ or even B- students in early courses improve dramatically throughout their career), I am willing to admit that STEM courses at top schools are on average a bit rougher than much less selective schools, but as I have always discussed, the reasons courses give high achieving students at these schools can be different and depend on how the intro/intermediate pre-health cores are run. Mainly, are they “firehose memorization” which many students can more easily adjust to if they are willing to do the work or are they “ultra problem solving and application oriented”. I tend to put WUSTL and Emory in the latter category. The chemistry curricula at both pose serious problems for many students expecting to plug and chug or memorize their way to success, and so do biology and neuroscience courses which tend to lean more towards research orientation and problem solving than curricula at a lot of places. My understanding is that JHU is similar. The D-3 schools in the top 20 or so seem quite similar in terms of how they chose to pitch their life sciences curricula.
Either way, please do not discourage your son from applying to those places if interested. His MCAT may put him back in the running as WUSTL provides damned good training for the types of items on it provided he took problem solving oriented instructors (which I am sure he did as a biology major. I checked WUSTL bio offerings and like Emory, many of the intermediate and advanced courses have primary lit. discussion sections which is always great prep for the MCAT. Being exposed to lit. across several areas of bio or STEM beyond just his undergraduate research is a great thing!). Hang in there.
@twogirls : thank you for telling the truth! People like to believe all state schools are created equal and paint them as “must be easier than elite private”…uhm no. There are plenty of flagship and non-flagships who not only have STEM curricula that can give elite privates a serious run for the money (because many of the publics were really quick to get on board with massive STEM curriculum reform efforts, much of such efforts that shift STEM curriculum to the type of rigor a person who is mainly great at scoring well on basic/standardized tests may not respond the best too. A surprising amount of privates, especially research Us, are still quite “traditional”, but just go at fast paces), but they have an abundance of really strong students number wise who may cluster in those types of classes.
If you score 523+ and have a GPA of 3.7+ from WUSTL, you always have a shot at most schools for an interview.
The rule of thumb is 3.8 and 520 though.
If anyone wants to see the range of MCAT scores and gpa’s of matriculants for any U.S. med school please do yourself a favor and purchase a copy of the MSAR.
Can everyone just rank the med schools and the info I was asking for in my post, I am not looking for a debate about MCAT scores and acceptance percentages and med schools. I am looking for help on ranking these PRE MED programs. Not financial advice, not scores, etc.