Tiers within the T14

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>How equal are the schools in the T14? Are there marked differences in the portability and marketability of degrees from Harvard and say Georgetown?</p>

<p>Someone mentioned that Yale, Harvard, Stanford, and Columbia were the first tier of the T14; UChicago, NYU, Berkeley, Penn comprise the second; UMichigan, Duke, and Virginia are the third; and Northwestern, Cornell, and Georgetown are the fourth tier. Is there any truth to the implication that degrees are significantly more portable and marketable as you move to the top of the list? And if so, where are the differences most pronounced? This is, of course, assuming that all other things (i.e., grades) are equal.</p>

2

<p>The tiers, as far as placement into big firms is concerned, goes roughly like:</p>

<p>YS>H>CCN>P>MVN>BCG</p>

<p>(Just based on my opinion of how the job hunt is going in this economy)</p>

<p>The traditional tiers look something like:</p>

<p>HYS
CCN
MVPB
DNCG</p>

3

<p>The conventional wisdom is that Yale, Harvard, Stanford are the first group. Recession or no, students from this group can generally do whatever they want coming out: biglaw, prosecution, public interest, politics, think tanks, clerkships, etc. (SCOTUS clerkships and faculty positions, of course, are much more selective even than this.)</p>

<p>Columbia, NYU, and Chicago are generally considered the next tier and roughly equivalent. Biglaw is usually an option coming out of these programs, although students who don’t interview very well or who have poor grades will struggle in recruiting.</p>

<p>Michigan, Virginia, Boalt, and Penn are generally considered the next grouping. Again, Biglaw is usually an option, although again it can be hard if your grades aren’t particularly strong.</p>

<p>Finally, Northwestern, Duke, Cornell, and maybe Georgetown are in this final grouping. The upper parts of the class have strong biglaw options, but it can be a little bit tricky after that. It’s not as if you have to be in the top 10% or anything, but being in the top 30% will be quite a big deal. Lower than that, or even in the bottom half, and students can find themselves in pretty severe trouble.</p>

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<p>This obscures a lot of differences within groups. Northwestern actually tends to have better recruiting than many other schools, partly because of their admissions emphasis on prior work experience. By reputation among the “CCN” tier, Columbia does slightly better at firms; NYU slightly better at public interest; Chicago slightly better at academia and clerkships. Georgetown places better into politics than its peers.</p>

<p>Etc.</p>

4

<p>I know that there is a more recent version of this table, if someone can find it, but this outlines which law schools have the most success at placing graduates into Biglaw:</p>

<p><a href=“http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf[/url]”>http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

5

<p>y<em>h</em><em>s</em>/c<strong>c_n</strong>/p<em>vm</em>b<em>/n</em>dc_g</p>

<p>or, more liberally,</p>

<p>HYS/CCN/MVPB/DCNG, order within groupings irrelevant.</p>

6

<p>I think that you’re really splitting hairs with this whole thread.</p>

7

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</p>

<p>wow… thanks for this feedback. I guess it’s just simply really tough to break into biglaw nowadays. so, coming from bottom T14, you would need to be close to top 30% of the class to be kinda safe for OCI?? This is kinda crazy I think…</p>

<p>Btw, bluedevil- i noticed that you possess a deep knowledge on the issues relating to law schools and job prospects. looking at your screen name, did you attend Duke law?</p>

8

<p>What about Vanderbilt ?Is it worth attending ?</p>

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<p>UCLA, Vanderbilt, and Texas are generally considered the next tier of schools (maybe USC?). It’s not a dramatic jump from there to, say, Georgetown, although there is a noticeable gap.</p>

10

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<p>It’s worth the pain to split hairs over the investment of 250,000 USD, three years from the prime of one’s life.</p>

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<p>You’re doing something seriously wrong if you spend $250K on law school.</p>

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<p>A student budget is roughly $65K at most schools, including room and board. So three years comes out to $195K.</p>

<p>kwu is rounding, but he’s certainly not off by an insane amount.</p>

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<p>Rounding to what? The nearest quarter million? There’s no reason to spend more than $180K, even if you’re getting nothing from the school.</p>

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<p>note that Kwu has NY on his/her name plate. NYU Law has a budget of $71k this year, Columbia is $74k, excluding travel and health insurance. Add in inflation for the next two years, and $250k is about right for one of those NYC schools.</p>

15

<p>Totally unrelated, but what about going to medical school and becoming a doctor and specializing in something (how does that compare with biglaw salary wise)? Does your salary also increase with med school rankings? I heard the acceptance rate to med school is so low, that any med school is very good for that sake.</p>

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<p>Med School is definitely a better bet. Average salary is higher, and most med schools will get you in that top 2% of income earners. You don’t have to go to Harvard to guarantee that.</p>

<p>I’d be going if I was any good at chemistry, physics, math, etc.</p>

17

<p>Medical school admissions overall is about 40% – that is, 40% of applicants can get in somewhere. Salaries for full-fledged physicians are lower than their age-equivalent-peers in Biglaw, but most physicians make very good salaries while many lawyers do not. Medicine is safer, in other words. Medical school ranking is not very well correlated with salary, especially if you control for specialty.</p>

<p>On the other hand, medical school is four years rather than three and is followed by a residency which can last 3-9 years, during which you are making a waiter-like-salary. So you lost 4-10 years of opportunity cost and income during that time.</p>

<p>Young physicians, especially young surgeons, generally also work harder than young lawyers.</p>

18

<p>But does Biglaw have the capacity to make 300k or more a year? That is what specialized physicians can make (i.e. radiologists, urologists) can Biglaw give 200k or more a year?</p>

<p>And residency does not make much true but that is the means and not the ends so the net result of the physician’s salary can outweigh the issue.</p>

<p>“Salaries for full-fledged physicians are lower than their age-equivalent-peers in Biglaw” - Does that mean radiologists/urologists make less than biglaw associates? </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.ilrg.com/nlj250[/url]”>http://www.ilrg.com/nlj250&lt;/a&gt;
^That shows biglaw salaries, and it is sealed for attorneys at 125k. Doctors can make way more than that I believe. Baker and McKenzie is the largest in the country, but doctors make more.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm[/url]”>http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm&lt;/a&gt;
^A much more noble cause in my honest opinion, and the reward is quite hefty. </p>

<p>Physicians work harder, in what sense? They don’t have to deal with the impediments or annoyances of Corporate America though as much as lawyers do. I’m assuming the humanitarian role behind medicine has a much higher “satisfaction rate” than does law, since so many lawyers complain about how they hate the profession as it’s draining them due to the constant polarization and argumentative motives and vested interests. I hate that kind of theory on life, but rather enjoy humanitarian motives. Do you get to make your own schedule too in medicine? That’s what I generally heard, depending on where you work.</p>

19

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<p>The budgets are calculated for financial aid purposes. They do include insurance and travel, but you can live for a lot less if you’re reasonably frugal. </p>

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<p>Of course it can. Third year associates can make more than that, with bonus. Partners very often make over a million a year. Your salary figures are badly outdated. </p>

<p>The real advantage of medicine is that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. While biglaw associates make more than residents, their odds of making partner or even special counsel are very slim. And even if they do make partner, there is no reduction in the amount of work, and there’s the additional pressure of having to develop business.</p>

20

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<p>Yes? Even associates make more than that. Partners at the very top firms average something like a $3.5M bonus.</p>

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<p>If for some reason you are obsessed with salary rather than how much money you have, then sure, full-fledged doctors (age 35+) do better than very young associates (age: 25).</p>

<p>But ignoring residency because it isn’t permanent is stupid. If you spent nine years making $40,000 while your age-peers are averaging $250K, that puts you in a massive financial hole. Just because you eventually catch up to them doesn’t mean you should ignore the nine years in between.</p>

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<p>Your ILRG link is for first year associates (age: 25; compare to doctors who are paying $50,000 in tuition) and is several years old (update: now $160,000).</p>

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<p>Residents work longer hours than young associates in biglaw. By and large, full-fledged physicians and lawyers “set their own hours,” but all of them work very long hours anyway.</p>

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<p>Look, if you think medicine is more fun than law, that’s a very good reason to pursue it. But don’t try to rationalize the financials. Medicine is less risky; biglaw pays more. That’s often the way things work in this world.</p>