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<p>In some areas, yes. But in other areas, people have ways of flaunting status.</p>
<p>Regarding the two comments on the “offensiveness” of the J.T. Tran section in the article, some context is needed.</p>
<p>According to the Pew Research Center, two “groups” have big gender differences in the rates of interracial marriage: black females and Asian males ([Source](<a href=“http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/10/755-marrying-out.pdf]Source[/url]”>http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/10/755-marrying-out.pdf)</a>). 22% of black males intermarry compared to 8.9% of black females; and 19.5% of Asian males intermarry compared to 39.5% of Asian females. For some Asians, it’s not that 19.5% is low but that the 20% gap is large.</p>
<p>To the extent that Tran’s seminars are encouraging Asian males to be more assertive and bold, I’m all for them.</p>
<p>(IMHO, if black females and Asian males mutually cast off some prejudices of “the other,” two gaps could be closed at once.)</p>
<p>First off, I’m going to say that the author, Wesley Yang, certainly did his homework, however, he did miss a few pertinent things.</p>
<p>According to the US Census, the median income for the Asian male (in comparison to a white male with the same level of education) starts off higher, but as you go up the age brackets, increasingly gets lower than their WM counterparts.</p>
<p>However, when it comes to the median income for Asian females in comparison to white females with the same level of education, it starts off higher and remains higher as you go up the age brackets.</p>
<p>But this should be hardly surprising as Asian females are more included in the “social fabric” - appearing more on TV (whether on fictional show, sitting in the anchor chair, in commercials or as host of a TV program), in periodical publications (whether it be in the advertisments or the magazine articles), etc.</p>
<p>WY also didn’t dwelve deep enough into the diff. Asian groups</p>
<p>Not every Asian lives in a ethnic enclave and associates with other Asians (usually of the same ethnicity).</p>
<p>While he touches upon the while “Twinkie/banana” thing, he later contradicts himself and states that he was aliented from both his ethnic heritage and from his white peers.</p>
<p>T/Bs, socially and culturally, are “white” - watch the same shows, read the same books/magazines, listen to the same music and socialize w/ a white-dominant group.</p>
<p>But despite having fully “assimilated” - they also face the “bamboo ceiling” - based on people’s perception of them due to their facial features.</p>
<p>A lot of these T/Bs get a shock when they leave the comfort/familiarity of their social circle in high school or college and realize that society (people who don’t know them) intially react to them based on stereotypes.</p>
<p>And it’s not the university setting is immune to this either.</p>
<p>When former Harvard basketball star, Jeremy Lin, was at Harvard, his classmates didn’t believe that he was on the BB team or they thought he was a benchwarmer. </p>
<p>And when he ended up starting for the team and being its focal point, Lin stated that the worst of the racist taunts he would get in road games would be from the student sections of other Ivy League schools.</p>
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<p>Why would it take a few generations? </p>
<p>The change can happen in one generation, and that still doesn’t solve them initially being judged/seen based on sterotypes.</p>
<p>And a lot of businesses (even those affiliated with universities) have programs that help blacks and Hispanics “climb the corporate ladder”, but somehow, they exclude Asians b/c it is deemed that Asians don’t need the help despite being underrepresented at the higher levels of management.</p>
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<p>So do most other countries, including those in Asia (why do you think so many white expats are in Asia?).</p>
<p>Your child growing up to be a high level executive for a Chinese company may be a long shot, but it’s no different for someone who is Korean, Thai, Viet, etc.</p>
<p>And in fact, your child would have an easier time than a non-Han Chinese Asian to get a “cushy” job at a Chinese company by virtue of having a caucasian face.</p>
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<p>Funny how white immigrants from Europe with European degrees are generally treated much better than non-white immigrants - despite both being foreigners.</p>
<p>And what is “American”?</p>
<p>At one point, Germans, Italians, Poles, the Irish, Greeks, Jews, etc. were seen as “foreign”, but now, parts of their cultural heritage has been woven into the fabric of “American culture.”</p>
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<p>LOL! Yeah, b/c that Asian male, if he had been elected to the BOE, would have ensured that the schools would change their style into one of a pressure-cooker.</p>
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<p>Are you really surprised?</p>
<p>This is nothing, tho, compared to the dreck you’ll find on yahoo or even the comments section of papers like the Washington Post.</p>
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<p>Reminds me of the Louisiana Sheriff who protested that he wasn’t racist for refusing to hire Viet-Americans for his dept. b/c his wife was Asian.</p>
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<p>Again, it can happen in as little as one generation - but nevertheless, a person with an Asian face (despite being totally “American”) is usually going to have a tougher time than a recent immigrant from Europe (esp. those from Western Europe).</p>
<p>Interesting article. Thanks for posting, OP.</p>
<p>I haven’t read every comment here but as a 1st generation American, I’m wondering why it is necessary for minorities to act and look American/white? I read from the article that there are classes Asians can take to change facial expressions and body language. I think it’d also be beneficial for Americans to have classes on looking past stereotypes.</p>
<p>One of the things I didn’t understand in the article was why a smile always was perceived by the writer as a “**** eating grin.” As fake. As “manipulative.” I likr GFG’s point about how in different cultures friendliness is expressed different ways. I think the writer sees adapting to a smiling culture as selling out. As if smiling for him would be caving. I like GFG’s approach to adjusting, even if at first it is uncomfortable, to the ways of the country you find yourself in. People in every culture I think resent newcomers who show up and expect everyone else to change to respond to their ways. I think it is a classic mark of immaturity to think you can go into a situation in the metaphorical punk outfit (dark) and be upset when folks judge you on your looks. If it is a cultural habit to hide feelings and keep a somber face and you enter a smiling culture, then to say that if you smile you are using a manipulative **** eating grin says something pertinent about your personality and perhaps gives a clue as to your lack of success.</p>
<p>^ I’ve noticed in the US that there is indeed a lot of smiling and there’s a lot of smiling between strangers as well. I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing but it is very different from Asian culture. Here, smiling is the norm. In many Asian countries, smiling at strangers is well…strange lol</p>
<p>I do feel that a percentage of the smiling feels fake but I know that smiling is regarded as being friendly.</p>
<p>In response to fabrizio post #42, while I could appreciate that the gap in % of intermarriages for female vs. male Asians is potentially problematic, when I said that the Tran material was offensive, I meant offensive. Here is one excerpt to which I referred, from page 8 of the article:</p>
<p>“Before each student crosses the floor of that bare white cubicle in midtown, Tran asks him a question. ‘What is good in life?’ Tran shouts. The student then replies, in the loudest, most emphatic voice he can muster: ‘To crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women—in my bed!’ For the intonation exercise, students repeat the phrase ‘I do what I want’ with a variety of different moods.”</p>
<p>This does not sound like a promising future son-in-law under development. It might help a student fit in with DKE at Yale, but DKE has just been banned for the next five years. </p>
<p>If anyone else on the thread read the entire article, I’m puzzled if that section wasn’t rather attention grabbing. It doesn’t seem logical to me to complain about the bamboo ceiling while simultaneously reinforcing the glass ceiling–or even worse.</p>
<p>k&s–you’re right, it doesn’t have to take even one generation, if the person is astute and willing to adapt. My point was that assimilation happens naturally within a few generations without all the angst and conscious effort. There’s a pretty big difference already between the Asians born here and their foreign-born parents.</p>
<p>There’s an Indian man in my husband’s company who has managed to fit in pefectly, despite being born and raised in India. And guess what? He keeps on getting promoted and is now in upper managemnet. He’s smart, knowledgeable, very outgoing, and knows how to communicate with everyone. It can be done. I’m sure humility helps. For one thing, as already posted above, being smart isn’t the end all and be all of life for Americans, and when immigrants act as though it is, they are violating our cultural values. </p>
<p>The assertion that white European immigrants were treated better here is a myth. Do your homework and you’ll learn that the Irish, the Italians and the Poles, to name a few, were the butt of jokes, the targets of prejudice, and the victims of discrimination in employment. And as far as racism goes, the Chinese live in a glass house and shouldn’t throw stones. No people group in the world has been more insular. Both Chinese friends my age, as well as my children’s friends who are Chinese, have admitted that their parents believe that even the worst Chinese person is better than a non-Chinese. Yup, guess that explains why the mother of my son’s Chinese girlfriend was SOOOOO upset that she was dating a non-Chinese, and worse yet–an Hispanic!</p>
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<p>As long as you know that it didn’t come out of “nowhere,” that’s fine. I just wanted to provide some context for what otherwise would appear to be a random, misogynist digression.</p>
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<p>That is a spot-on observation. And all the practicing of smiling won’t erase it.</p>
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<p>Which is why my argument has always been that I cannot stand the U.S. Immigration policy. I know I’m a lone voice here, but I don’t care. I think a country, any country, which welcomes immigrants as a part of its national policy, claiming to value them, need them, etc. has a responsibility to transition them. “A few generations” is a long time. And yes, there’s a difference between an intellectual understanding of cultural differences, and the assimilation/acceptance of those, but i.m.o. there’s no reason why it can’t happen within one generation, with proactive outreach by “Asians born here.” </p>
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<p>In my experience in an Indian-saturated region (many of my colleagues are), the South Asian is decidedy different from the East Asian. Indians have experienced democracy; they also, historically, have interfaced with western cultural values and semantics through British influence, which has permeated their overseas education as well. They “get it,” and quickly. There are also some aspects of their own culture that bridge some aspects of ours.</p>
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<p>I see you haven’t dropped this argument, epiphany. How about Pakistanis? Until 1947, Pakistan and India were both part of the British Raj (i.e. they were colonies of the British Empire). So if Indians “get it,” how about the Pakistanis? Do they get it just as well? If not, why not?</p>
<p>How about Malaysians and Singaporeans? Until 1957, Malaysia was also a part of the British Empire, and until 1965, Singapore was a part of Malaysia. Do they “get it” as well as the Indians?</p>
<p>How about Indonesians? Until 1949, Indonesia was a part of the Dutch Empire. Do they “get it” as well as the Indians?</p>
<p>How about Vietnamese? Until 1954, France claimed Vietnam as a colony. Do they “get it” as well as the Indians?</p>
<p>I don’t deny the possibility that Indians may assimilate better than “East Asians,” but if true, it would have NOTHING to do with India’s formerly being a part of the British EMPIRE.</p>
<p>It may have nothing to do with British Raj and everything. The people from the Indian subcontinent (read India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and whatever else the queen ruled) were given the gift of English language and an appreciation for it where a percentage of the population were always getting educated in English (not as a language but as medium of instruction for all subjects except the mother tongue). If they did nt get there in the first 12 years, the instruction has been in English for professional education (engineering, medicine) and same applied for a lot of undergraduate majors too. In the last 20-30 years, people have figured out being educated in English can get you a job much more easily even if you did nt become an engineer or doctor and so a lot of middle class people have turned to english medium schools from childhood. </p>
<p>China on the other hand did nt get to the english part until probably 20 years ago. It is amazing how well people in China seem to speak lately compared to even 5 years ago. They figured out they were losing the support center business to other countries due to the communication skills and they have really ramped up. In the last year, I dont remember asking anyone in China on a conference call to repeat a statement which was a frequent occurrence in the past. </p>
<p>If I were to guess, any new immigrants from China will kick bu$% compared to their predecessors in terms of assimilation as well as emulating Americanism.</p>
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<p>Yes, but we’re not talking about status. For example, it may very well be (I don’t know) that in the East Asian work world, people who went to X University are looked at as uniformly being smarter / better / more deserving than people who went to Y University. However, that simply isn’t the case here in America. You don’t walk into a team meeting, listen to your fellow team members discuss a topic, and mentally say, “Oh, that person went to a state u so what he said I can ignore – however, that person went to HYPSM so whatever he said must be golden and true.” When Wesley Yang uses the word “beneath me” it sends off a signal (whether he means it or not) that in a work setting he might be judging people’s contributions based on their education as opposed to, well, the actual contribution.</p>
<p>I sit in meetings all day long with clients who represent a range of educations. Many / most went to some nice elite schools; still others went to more average schools. Nonetheless, in the context of what we all need to accomplish to move the business forth, none of that matters. No one bows at the feet of the person who happened to have graduated from an Ivy, and no one scoffs at the smart idea of the person who went to State U. There is something about the phraseology which may have been unintended, but implies that such bowing / scoffing would indeed occur, and that people would be classified as “beneath you” or not. And that’s simply not an attitude that will fly in American culture.</p>
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<p>People may not say it in the US (although it sometimes shows up on these forums), but many people with bachelor’s degrees think of blue collar type workers (including skilled and well paid ones) as “beneath them” or that not going to university will permanently consign someone to being “beneath them”.</p>
<p>There is elitism in other contexts as well. People who fly frequently on airlines gain elite customer status, and often think of themselves as being “above” others who fly on airlines. Or people judge others based on the expensiveness of their clothes, jewelry, watch, shoes, car, house, etc…</p>
<p>So yes, elitism is alive and well in the US, as it is everywhere. But it is just that the socially acceptable ways of expressing it or showing one’s status happen to differ in different societies.</p>
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<p>Sure, but that’s a striver mindset – not an “I’ve made it” mindset. It’s those who have made it who are precisely the ones who are not so concerned with trying to prove themselves as “above” the plumber, electrician, etc. </p>
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<p>I still don’t think “beneath” is the word that quite captures that. I agree people may see others as unsophisticated or uncouth, but that’s different from beneath.</p>
<p>I hope this next comment does not come off as racist, but here goes. Let’s say you are a college admissions officer. You are trying to do something akin to judging horse flesh. You have two horses before you with the same clocked time in a race. Which horse do you choose to bet on? Well, horse number one is naturally fleet of foot, has a sweet temperament, is pleasant to work with, and has been superbly trained by a top trainer. The other horse is a bit high strung and skittish and has been trained by someone who is quick to use the whip. Which one do you promote? They both have clocked the same speed. But they each may be very different to live with. *Let the record show that I am more like horse number 2 and understand why the other extraverted horsie types in my barn tend to get promoted over me.</p>
<p>This thread is getting interesting.</p>
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<p>Anyone has an answer to fabrizio, to compare Indians and Singaporeans, both speak English well?</p>
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<p>texaspg has an excellent point. But why?</p>
<p>I guess life styles and value systems has a lot to do with assimilation. The most critical thing may not be related to the spoken language at all.</p>