<p>deb922, I think that's great that your daughter is doing so well with her Alg II teacher but I am afraid that that teaching style leads to failure for a lot of kids. That's a good teaching style for high-achieving, college bound kids, but when Algebra II is required to graduate and all the kid wants to do is get his diploma, it is not going to help him achieve his goal. After school help is great, but if the kid doesn't understand enough to know what he doesn't understand, then he doesn't know what to ask. My 8th-grade son was on the school basketball team this year and a lot of the boys would go to math lab after school because practice started at 4:30 so it allowed them to hang around school until practice started. Math lab was helpful to my son who knew what he was doing and would have an occasional question, but when the kid has no idea how to do a problem, then does not have the background to actually do the problem, there is not alot that after school help can do for him. A lot of people on this forum send their kids to either private school or very competitive public school, where the population base that they draw from is from a higher end socioeconomically and academically. Our high school has all kinds of kids, from intellectually elite professor's kids, to wealthy, country club kids to very low-achieving, low-income kids. We are under a federal mandate to get our act together to racially balance all of our school. </p>
<p>What I am saying is that there are kids who will never graduate from high school given the current graduation requirements. It is not allowable to say that some kids are smarter than others, but it is pretty obvious, so why can't there be a track where kids can graduate and go on to their low level jobs but still have that diploma. I spent many hours in the classroom when my kids were in elementary school, working with kids who couldn't grasp addition and subtraction, why would anyone think these kids could grasp algebra when they got older? It wasn't the fault of the teachers or me, the parent volunteer. You could go ahead and blame the parents for their chaotic home life but the parents were second or third (or more) generation of high school dropouts who weren't equipped to take care of their kids.</p>
<p>I hear a lot of hemming and hawwing about the role of parents in education. But what is interesting to me, here in Japan, is how little parents in Japan take an active role in their children's education, yet the Japanese do manage to pump out pretty well educated high school grads.</p>
<p>Just do not, under any circumstances, ask them to speak English.</p>
<p>UCLAri:
I'd rather ask Japanese kids to speak English than ask your average US kid to speak Japanese. Or Chinese. Or <em>any</em> Asian language... :) .</p>
<p>I can't count the number of times my kids were asked to "speak some Indian" during their elementary/ middle school days. Most kids here are blissfully ignorant of the fact (among others) that there is no such thing as a single "Indian" language.</p>
<p>You're very generously overlooking the fact that English is a mandatory study in Japan, and that the average high school grad in Japan has over 6 years of English language study under her belt. </p>
<p>I've seen high schools teach Korean and Japanese in LA, and some people I knew (non-Asians) had at least functional abilities in the language by the time they finished their two or three years.</p>
<p>Trust me, the English education in Japan is just THAT BAD.</p>
<p>Izzie, finally a voice like mine who says that the "any child can learn anything" mantra is bogus. Guess what, I can't be a nuclear physicist.
Even if I try REALLY hard, and my parents support me, and everyone expects me to be one--it's just not in me.</p>
<p>When I was in high school in the 70s, perfectly intelligent non-college bound kids filled their math credits with consumer and business math, which in my opinion relates more to the arithmetic that most of us use every day. When was the last time you plotted a line using coordinate points?</p>
<p>Quote:
My quote: Obedience is needed in life. We must obey government laws, school rules, home rules, office rules, etc.</p>
<p>ari writes: To an extent. Too much obedience is bad as well. Remember that obeying laws is only good to the extent that the laws themselves are good.</p>
<p>Ari....</p>
<p>Let's not get ridiculous. I am talking about the normal obedience of child rearing. Nobody supports the idea of "obedience" to the point of doing something unethical, immoral, illegal or wrong. No one has the right to expect obedience in those matters. The fact that some governments or bizarre parents take "obedience" to the point where kids/adults agree to do immoral, illegal things, IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE. Parents should never stop doing the "right thing" just because someone or gov't has taken a good thing (obedience) and have abused it with evil.</p>
<p>This is a discussion about kids and their performance at school. I, and many others concur, that many homes lack discipline which is why kids come to school not willing to do what they are told (again, nothing illegal/unethical/immoral). Then, those kids go home and don't feel the need to do the homework that they have been told to do. When I was growing up, my parents never had to ask me to "do my homework". I knew that I had to do what the teachers told me to do. </p>
<p>IF you are worried that teaching obedience somehow will "confuse" kids into thinking that they must go along with illicit demands of others, I can tell you that is not a given. The same kids who are correctly taught obedience are also taught to respect natural laws and are told to tell their parents if someone tells them to do something that is wrong.</p>
<p>Part of raising an obedient child is ALSO helping them develop a WELL-FORMED conscience, so a person does not fall to "blind obedience". In nazi Germany, many chose to die themselves rather that "obey" the orders to do evil to others. Many chose to defy immoral laws and help hide Jews in their homes knowing that if they were caught that they and their children would be executed. Instilling a "well-formed conscience is part of the deal. Those without a well-formed conscience will go along with evil and use the excuse that they were "told to do it." That would never fly with me..</p>
<p>What about at check out time at store clerk. When you give moeny to the clerk and wants it back but there is a chnage in transction and clerk looks you back as you have confused him thoroughly. Now he needs calculator to find out what he owes you back . If he or she has no calculator, good luck. They are struggling with simple aithmatic calculations; forget that they can even understand the complex algebra.</p>
<p>If employers says that I need to hire work permit visa the people say oh why are we giving jobs to forreigners. Lack of qualified people is one of the key element for outsourcing.</p>
<p>I didn't really think that you thought otherwise. I just cringe when I watch my coworkers here in Japan willingly carry out bad policies KNOWING that they're bad.</p>
<p>Case in point: There are many serious grammatical and diction errors in the English textbook my schools use. I have pointed these out, even citing the necessary sources to back up my claims. My fellow teachers' response? "Oh, well, this is what the textbook says, so this is what we teach."</p>
<p>I suppose my frustration with an overly obedient society has just brought out the latent libertarian in me...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lack of qualified people is one of the key element for outsourcing.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm under the impression (based mostly on what I'm reading in the various newspapers and the Economist) that the largest element is just cheaper labor. It's not that the US lacks qualified workers. It's the fact that our workers demand a living wage as Americans. It's so much cheaper to hire an Indian or Chinese and pay him beans compared to what the similarly trained American would get.</p>
<p>You may be right. But would you go to a school where kids tell tecahers I do not need to study. This student comes unprepared and disturb other kids while teacher is teaching. Now tecaher can not teach beacuse he is busy taking care of the trouble makers. </p>
<p>This does not happen in downtown school, this happens in a very reputable suburban public school. The reason this happened beacuse of lack of dicipline at home at eraly age. </p>
<p>So that kind of dicipline that do not disurb other is not a bad thing to accept.</p>
<p>Cheap labor yes. But you conveniently ignored the rest of the story. That many american student left the job in America to go to India or China so they can make learn the compettitive skiis in the respective fields. Why these students are in those countries there if they only earn say 10% what they can earn in America? Cheap labor for these american students!!!! I do not think so. It is the necessity to learn the skills that drives them there. </p>
<p>There are many very qualified students in America. NOt all Chinese or Indian are on equal footing with rest of the american students. </p>
<p>But I do think that many ( remember not all) parents in America want results but do not want to invest time in their kids. This is a really problem. Thus before we throw more mney, we need parents to do the homework of taking care of the kids to tecah them value of dicipline (Not need blind) . Otherwise social parenting will not be the cure of all the problems we see in schools.</p>
<p>And yes all schools outside the country have problems too. It is not a perfect world.</p>
<p>usalover--The checkout clerk is a perfect example of why consumer/business/arithmetic-based math needs to be offered in HS. The kids would have more exposure to this instead of solving for unknowns.</p>
<p>Just so long as they knew that it was not going to be college prep--the same as if they don't take a foreign language.</p>
<p>jaybee, I so agree with you on the consumer math as an option for hs students. I didn't even know that Algebra II was a requirement for graduation at our school, until I read this thread and looked it up in my son's curriculum guide. I know plenty of kids in my hs (in the 70's) took consumer math. The requirements for high school graduation are being bumped up for incoming freshman next year. I hadn't paid too much attention to the requirements because we were already planning on the a rigorous track for both our kids so we're not too worried about basic requirements. It seems like perhaps "what's wrong with our high schools?" is not that they are too easy and boring, but perhaps that they are too rigorous for the ENTIRE population and the people setting our educational policies are perhaps not living in the real world. I don't think a high school diploma should be unattainable for kids who are willing to show up and do the work. I felt sorry for that boy in the Time article who doesn't have any friends left in high school because they have all dropped out.</p>
<p>Ari:
Ah, I didn't know that English was mandatory over in Japan. Sorry.</p>
<p>Your example of comparing the performance of US kids who have taken a course in Japaneses/Chinese to those of Japanese kids who have taken English as a required course may be comparing apples and oranges a bit, no? Kids who voluntarily take a Japanese/Chinese course over here may have an interest in those languages, and therefore be more highly motivated.</p>
<p>Izzie, our system is going to start requiring the passing of standardized tests in Algebra I and Geometry. The three courses are already required, and the kids are already taking the tests, though they don't have to pass the test to graduate. (until incoming freshmen, it think)</p>
<p>Everyone seems in a panic by instituting the double-mod Algebra I to get these kids to pass to graduate. Passing a test is a lot different than passing a class, where points are given for homework, classwork, correcting a test, etc., etc. My son could fail most class tests, and still get a C or D if he did all of his work. Not so when the standardized test itself is a graduation requirement.</p>
<p>Its sad that we complain over making our kids learn algebra II to graduate high school. If a non- learning disabled kid cant learn algebra II by senior year, there is something seriously wrong with the school or the parents or both. Every kid should AT LEAST be on precalc by senior year.</p>
<p>jaybee, uh oh on the testing. We don't have that here, yet... I'm afraid that will lead to even more of a "have" vs. "have not" mentality. </p>
<p>ckmets, I have to disagree with you that every kid should be able to learn algebra II by senior year. For instance, my cleaning lady's son barely graduated from high school. Now he may or may not have some type of learning disability but he is just not a very bright kid, although he is a very handsome, nice, personable guy. He is now in his mid-20's, married, has a job delivering furniture for a local furniture store, his wife works at a day care, and the biggest problem in his life is that he can't afford an XBOX 360. To them, their life is perfectly lovely, although they could use more money. Fortunately for him, he graduated from high school before Algebra II was a requirement. His mom works full time at a dry cleaners and cleans houses in the morning before she goes to work, so he comes from a hard-working family although there was no father in the picture. </p>
<p>I think it is kind of elitist to say that every kid should be in pre-calc by senior year, it is just not possible for a large percentage of the population.</p>
<p>Izzie, a BIG uh-oh on the graduation test. I suppose it will either have to be totally dumbed down, or when half the kids fail it, they will have to "postpone" the passing requirement so they don't have a huge non-graduating cohort. </p>
<p>ckmets, total disagreement on precalc in HS. MAYBE for college prep, but tons of kids have no intention to go to college. Also, some college-bound kids (like my S) really stink at math, and will take only 1 semester of "math topics" in college and will be able to move on to what he is interested in (english/history/writing). Why does he need precalc?</p>