Timing of Talks with Ivy Coach

Athletic Recruits
1

<p>I have been reading various threads, doing 'Searches', and trying to figure out just how the timing of the Ivies and athlete 'tips' work. I can't quite figure out when to "hold 'em" close to the chest and when to just "lay the cards on the table". Would appreciate collective voices of experience.</p>

<p>Our H.S. senior is in a small sport and has met 'unofficially' a couple times with the Ivy League coach at the kiddo's 'one of two' top college choices. After attending a summer program at the college, I believe the college has now moved into Kiddo's 'top choice' spot. </p>

<p>The coach has always expressed interest in her and continues to do so. At coach's request, Kiddo has sent her official h.s. transcripts (complete through both semesters of junior year), the official ACT from first sitting, the official SAT score, and the unofficial ACT scores from second sitting. Kiddo's NCAA Eligibility form is up-to-date and coach has perused it.</p>

<p>After reviewing all that stuff, the coach has told Kiddo she has "one, maybe two, but probably one 'tip'" she can use for her team per year (I told you it was a small sport). She has asked Kiddo if this school is within Kiddo's top 5 and Kiddo has confirmed to the coach that it is definitely in the top 2. The coach has suggested in conversations that she could sponsor Kiddo, but in other conversations, the coach seems more vague, but still very interested. The coach has offered Kiddo her choice of official visit dates and has said that she does have some other recruits. The coach did say to Kiddo that her NCAA score/rating (whatever that is called) is 2.25, while her usual team average is 2.05, 'so you are really high'. The coach, however, has also said that, typically, the athletes on the team don't get in without a 'tip'.</p>

<p>So, Kiddo can't really figure out what the coach is trying to tell her. She kind a feels like they are dancing around the subject, one waiting for the other to just straight out commit.
We were not present for the meetings Kiddo had with the coach during the summer program, but were trying to help Kiddo with basic 'negotiation' patterns. When Kiddo went to the summer program, she was leaning toward this school, but still wanted the opportunity to apply to the other one, which had long been her 'dream school'. Neither one are schools anyone can count as sure bets. This school is a binding early decision, which the coach, of course, wants her to apply as.</p>

<p>Kiddo and we are trying to figure out whether it is appropriate for Kiddo to simply tell the coach straight out that if the coach will sponsor (tip) her, then Kiddo will commit to applying ED --which effectively prevents her from applying ED (non-binding) to her other choice school (where she is not likely to be recruited). Even with Kiddo's GPA and test scores, she can't be sure she'd get in 'on her own', but with a coach's 'tip', she would sure be in as good a position as she could possibly be. And, all things considered, both we as her parents and she thinks that she has a better shot at getting into this school--with or without her sport. But the sport just seems to help boost things.</p>

<p>Having never had the college athlete experience anywhere in our families to draw upon, we are at a loss as to how to 'play' this game. Is it time now for Kiddo to just lay her cards out straight on the table for the coach? </p>

<p>Kiddo's basic academic info for purposes of admission are:</p>

<p>GPA (unweighted): 3.98
GPA (weighted): 4.95
Class rank: 10th of 830 (as of 1st sem. jr.; newest rank not yet given, but
probably, she's moved up)
APs: World Hx: 4; Art Hx: 4; US Hx: 5; Euro Hx: 5; Eng Lang & Comp: 5; Calc BC: 3,
subscore: 3</p>

<p>SAT: 2100 (Math: 690 CR: 680 Writing: 730)
ACT: 31 (Eng: 33 Math: 33 Reading: 30 Science: 27 Combined: 30)
34 (Eng: 35 Math: 34 Reading: 35 Science: 31 Combined: 31)</p>

2

<p>Hi!</p>

<p>With the Ivy’s you need to ask for a likely letter. If they give her a likely letter then she is almost guaranteed to be in the school. After going through the process with my older kid and now with my younger, you need to do right by your kid and not worry about what the coach wants. I would have her apply early to the school she wants the most and let the chips for where they may.</p>

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<p>The coach may be acting a little coy because your D’s stats are so strong; coach may feel she is likely to get in even without support, so she could take a gamble and not use a tip. It sounds to me as if there’s not much to lose by applying ED to the school with the most interested coach - IF your D thinks she would really like that school. If that’s the case, then I think the whole process could be streamlined by doing exactly what you mentioned: telling coach she will apply ED if given the tip (and ideally, a likely letter, as chargerfans suggests). She loses the chance to apply ED to the non-recruiting school, but the odds of getting in to the recruiting school would seem much higher.</p>

<p>If you have time, you might find it interesting to read “Playing the Game: Inside Athletic Recruiting in the Ivy League” by Chris Lincoln, who played football at Dartmouth. It’s a great education in a single book, and explains all the strategy issues in great detail.</p>

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<p>I agree with Charger - I’d ask the coach if she’s able to give your D a likely letter, indicating that she’s willing to commit to ED if she receives the likely. If the coach can’t give the likely, she may not be able/willing to commit that spot to your D yet. In that case, you have to decide whether or not to go ahead with ED, without the likely letter - giving up the opportunity to apply ED elsewhere, without assurance of full support at this school. It’s a delicate dance - each party wanting to stay involved with the other, while still looking to see what the other opportunities are. If you think this is a good fit for your D, I’d go for it, as sometimes the last ones to commit are left without a dance partner :frowning: Sounds like your D is a great kid and has a terrific opportunity!</p>

5

<p>Thank you both for your review and suggestions. Hubby and I are both in the negotiations business and have been explaining to Kiddo that the coach wants to get as much as she can for her ‘tip’ and that, as FauxNom suggested, perhaps she thinks Kiddo has a chance to get in on her own and thus, coach could save her tip to spend on another athlete. So, as in all negotiations, the coach wants to maximize what she can get when spending her tip, i.e., an athlete she wants that might not otherwise and Kiddo , in turn, has to show that she is giving up something by committing to this coach early decision—the chance to apply to her original dream school. Otherwise, the coach would be spending her tip on an athlete that would be coming anyway.</p>

<p>Kiddo really would be very happy at coach’s school. It matches all her criteria and she has checked it out as best as possible via the summer program. She came home even crazier about the school than before she went. It was a great way to get her a little acclimated to what she can expect college life to be. She really felt it was extremely beneficial and confirmed that she loves the campus, the atmosphere, the surrounding area, and the city itself. So, really applying ED is a no-brainer, she just wants to maximize her chances because it does prevent her from even trying for ED at other schools. If she gets in, she’ll be ecstatic and won’t look back. If she doesn’t, she’ll always wonder ‘what-if’ she’d applied ED to the other school.</p>

<p>FauxNom, thanks for the book suggestion. I will try very hard to pick it up and read it ASAP.</p>

<p>As for the Likely Letters, I’ve read about them and did see where several have recommended just flat out asking for one and not being shy about it —as opposed to hoping they’ll offer one. But, I do have a question: Are the Likely Letters tied to the coach’s ‘tips’? That is, could Kiddo perhaps receive a Likely Letter based solely upon a review of her academic credentials without the coach spending her one tip or must the tip be spent for the Letter to be sent?</p>

<p>(I’m guessing that answer is in Chris Lincoln’s book, which I do plan to get and read, but I’d love it if you all would tell me the answer—if known—as a preview to the book :slight_smile: )</p>

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<p>Runners2, we were typing at the same time. Thank you for your insights! I really appreciate all the help here.</p>

<p>Kiddo had met with the coach at the end of last week and coach told her she’d give her a call this week after Kiddo had been home for awhile and thought over her summer program experience. That was the conversation in which the more ‘coy’ approach had appeared and was the first one after the coach had reviewed the NCAA Eligibility stuff and Kiddo’s most recent ACT scores. So, we were wondering if perhaps coach was thinking Kiddo might be strong enough without her tip, when before the coach had said “I could sponsor you”. . . . It was in that conversation that Kiddo got hints that ‘if you snooze, you might lose’—as Runners2 pointed out.</p>

<p>So, hence my request here. Didn’t know whom else to really ask in order to help Kiddo be prepared for the coach’s next contact and not inadvertently beat herself with misplaced tactics. Kiddo’s high school coach is not qualified to be asked these questions and her club coach really has experience only with her sport’s ‘powerhouse’ university recruitment and scholarship negotiating tactics, not the Ivies.</p>

<p>So I really appreciate you all’s experiences and insights. Thank you!</p>

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<p>I don’t think there is universal agreement about the definition of a “tip” across different sports and different schools, but I would assume that if the coach is able to pursue a likely letter for your D, she would use up that “tip”. So she may not want to do that if she thinks your D may get in on her own as you’ve suggested, or if she wants to wait and see which other recruits are coming her way. I think different schools allow a varying number of likely letters per sport, so it’s possible that this coach won’t even be able to provide a likely letter, but that’s the surest bet you have in this process, other than an ED offer of admission. Asking about the possibility of a likely letter (explaining that your D is hesitant to commit her one ED opportunity without some commitment on the part of the school) will give you a better idea of the coach’s ability to commit at this point. Good luck and enjoy this exciting process!</p>

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<p>Let me throw the following into the decision mix
</p>

<p>D2 was a fairly highly recruited DIII athlete in that she had quite a few schools to choose from of varying academic stature. She would have been happy at any of the schools because she targeted only those schools that had the curriculum she was looking for. She had also been doing the “recruiting dance” for over a year and she was probably a little early for DIII at that. By the summer before senior year, she was zeroing in on her top DIII schools and getting a lot of attention and promises from coaches.</p>

<p>The school she will be attending was a late-comer to her dance. They didn’t show any interest until late in September (though she had pursed them with no return interest). It was such a surprise when they asked for her academic profile, ACTs, SATs, etc. Within a week they wanted her to visit. She did, fell in love, and committed on the spot.</p>

<p>Why the rush? Well, one thing is that she/we were concerned that if she didn’t commit to this school, surely someone else would and then her spot would be gone. </p>

<p>It was a leap - but well worth it. Point is, know what you are competing for and what your competition could look like. Timing is important as is taking advantage of opportunities when they present themselves.</p>

<p>Luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity.</p>

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<p>treemaven, if this is her first choice school, she should ask for the likely letter. It will come from admissions and is a sure thing, in our experience with the Ivy my daughter attends. You are right in figuring out that the coach thinks she might get in on her own merit, but this is too big a gamble for you to take. You need some assurance that playing her one and only ED card will result in admission at her top choice. She loses opportunities at other ED/EAs by applying at this one, of course.</p>

<p>Not sure how timing will work. Admissions will need to read her application, so the coach might say they are not available to read until after Sept 1 or so. In any case, your daughter should stronly consdier making an official visit to the school after Sept 1 to make sure it’s what she really wants. Then ask for the early read on her application and ask for the likely, if she’s still convinced this is the right place. </p>

<p>Best wishes. What a lucky girl! And by lucky, I mean hard working and talented
</p>

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<p>Maybe it is her athletic ability that is preventing the coach from offering the tip? He did say he had other recruits
maybe some more “recruitable” from the standpoint of their athletics?? I don’t know what her sport is, but it could also be that he needs an athlete to fill a specific event/position.</p>

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<p>I agree with Runners2.</p>

<p>My daughter just spent two days being scouted by an Ivy. She has an AI of 234. The team needs 8 players next year but only has 6 tips, which have already been committed. Coach has told her she will be on the team if admitted. Coach flat out told us that even if he was aware of her before he had used up all 6 tips (he wasn’t) he would not have offered her one because her resume is so strong he feels she will get accepted on her own.</p>

<p>IMO, coaches definitely take calculated risks on who they do and don’t offer tips.</p>

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<p>How does she have that AI? How did you calculate that?</p>

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<p>I don’t know; the Ivies turn down literally thousands of kids with high AI’s like that. If the coach doesn’t give you a tip, it is probably because he had other athletes who he wanted on the team. Without a hook, you are just one of thousands.</p>

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<p>ChargerFans, I’m not sure if you are asking about Kiddo’s AI or GreatWhiteNorth’s daughter’s. If mine, I’m only repeating what Kiddo said the coach told her about Kiddo’s AI and the team’s average. (At the moment, I’m not at home and can’t for the life of me get back into Kiddo’s NCAA eligibility account to check on anything about hers).</p>

<p>Keylyme, I’ve considered whether it is her athletic ability that brought out the more ‘coy’ conversation from the coach. It is certainly possible: Kiddo’s specialty within the sport is not really the focus of this Ivy’s team, and in fact, they don’t even have the equipment for her specialty event. But Kiddo’s specialty is usually the one that gets the most attention from coaches and those that can excel at her event have little problem with the others. She’s no slouch in the other areas, but strongest in one area. </p>

<p>So, we have considered that perhaps it wouldn’t be as tempting for the coach to pursue her if she has others. And if that is the case, well, that’s the way the cookie crumbles.</p>

<p>But, that said, prior to beginning contact with the coach, we compared her event scores to the team participants and Kiddo’s scores were more than competitive, even though not her strongest event. The coach has seen her video and told Kiddo that she definitely has great skills. And actually, the athletes at Kiddo’s level usually are pursuing scholarship money at her sport’s powerhouse colleges/universities. So, I’m not really sure that Kiddo’s athletic abilities are an issue . . . . </p>

<p>So, I always just come back to my original question-- How best to play the hand Kiddo has to play: Hold the cards close (til when?) or just lay them on the table (sooner or later?). </p>

<p>Based upon what generous advice I’ve received here, I think I’m hearing folks say there is nothing to lose by just laying those cards out on the table at this point.</p>

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<p>ChargerFans: [Calculating</a> the Ivy League Academic Index](<a href=“http://home.comcast.net/~charles517/ivyai.html]Calculating”>http://home.comcast.net/~charles517/ivyai.html)</p>

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<p>Oops, I see I still have a lot of catching up to do . . . . (A.I., NCAA Eligibility scores, etc)</p>

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<p>tree
if her sport is gymnastics, I know most coaches will not sign someone as an “event specialist”, and I am thinking signing someone for a scholarship is equitable to giving them a “tip” at an Ivy. I don’t know if this is her sport, but
if it is, they are certainly looking for level 10 skills. Maybe they are in need of particular skills (most teams want twisting yurchenko vaults, major releases on bars, etc.) and strength on particular events? Again, if it is a different sport, sorry, but I guess this could apply in other sports as well.</p>

1 Like
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<p>When do most Ivy’s lock in their “tips” for next year. Is it completed by end of summer or does it go right up to October w/ likely letters? If anyone has experience with the Patriot League schools
 does it work the same?
Thanks in advance.</p>

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<p>I only have experience with one sport at one Ivy, but they had locked in all their tips for the high school class of 2010 by March of 2009.</p>

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<p>I think it really varies by sport. With the Ivy’s, some sports (soccer comes to mine) fill their spots early - usually during the junior year for high school students. Other sports are still filling spots later. Many coaches fill spots during the fall of senior year and those schools that have ED try to get their athletes committed by then. But often there are a few spots left that go in the RD round - the competition for those spots is tough as there are few openings left at that point. Don’t know much about the Patriot league.</p>