<p>Predistination is a belief that certain subgroups of Christianity believe in. Still, to most every Protestant and Catholic, it is not what they believe. shrek2004, you seem to be trying to take one issue in Christianity that many Christians disagree with and use it against the idea of religion, which IMO, seems rather desperate and petty.</p>
<p>that is false. predistination, or fate in general, was the most popular belief in the past. majority of the subgroups of christianity, especially protestants, believed in predistination until recently, but because of today's society, freewill has become much more popularly accepted, as a result, fate/predestination has faded out. religion is evolving with culture. religion is no longer what it used to be. religion is losing its ground in modern society and in the future i believe it will completely fade out. christianity in the united states alone, the majority of christians do not call themselves "religious", most have never attended church. Statistical studiest show that less than 20% of the christian population attend church on a regular basis in the United States. Christianity is no longer as superstitious as it had been in the past, and predestination, one of the many ideals of christianity, has faded out with it</p>
<p>i attended a protestant church for 6 years of my life. i have read the bible 3 times. im not naive when it comes to christianity.</p>
<p>there are so many contradicting statements in the bible alone that it cannot be taken seriously. Read Genesis and it contradicts itself so often that it is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Frylock, how do you know what God knows and doesn't know? Why is your religion any truer than any other religion?</p>
<p>shrek2004, are you claiming our ideas and beliefs shound not change and we should not reevaluate what we believe in? There are many false beliefs. Are you saying that once we learn the err of our ways, we should not change our beliefs? I'm not defending all beliefs the church has had over the past two thousand years. Certainly some of them are completely false. What you are saying is that if ever a group of religious people change their mind on a certain topic, they are just "conforming" to your secular ways. This is not true at all. True Christians (and members of other religions) are not looking for the the world's interpretation of the Bible (or the Koran, the Torah...) Change often comes about because of disagreements in the church. Many people have used the Bible to justify slavery, and of course, we can see now that that certainly isn't true. </p>
<p>Also, you claim the Bible contradicts itself. Just wondering...have you read Bible in its orignial language? If you have, you can see how many of these seeming contradictions are in reality many times just things that were not able to survive the translation. Other times, you have to look deeper than what might seem like a contradiction. Contradictions are often used to prove a certain point, and if you only superficially read these scriptures, you will just write them off as the Bible contradicting itself.</p>
<p>Claiming that you're not naive when it comes to Christianity makes me laugh. You might have knowledge of the Bible, or whatnot, but if you yourself are not a Christian, you really don't have any idea what it is all about. I know several divinity students who know the Bible like the back of their hand, but truly have no idea what it really means to be a Christian. </p>
<p>knightmare, it's called faith. Trust me, many times I've tried to convince myself that there is no such thing as religion, especially when I was younger. I wanted to be intellectual, I wanted to think I was "above" all that religious mess. I tried for several years to distance myself from believing, but in the end, I knew without a doubt in my heart that it was the truth. Many are successful in pushing away from God, and I am thankful everyday that I could not. The logical reasoning (which you all seem much more fond of than you should be, in my opinion) behind my decision is not overwhelming, but that's not what religion is. It's looking past logic. To think that you have to understand everything to believe in it is ignorant. Do you know exactly how a computer works? No, I bet you don't, but you believe in it just the same because you see it. I don't know how God works, but I see him everday. Certainly not physically, but spiritually, and in my opinion that is more real than any tangible object in the world.</p>
<p>Frylock...while I respect your belief to believe in God and religion, the argument you are making does not make sense. </p>
<p>A) The Bible does contradict itself. I too have read it and can understand how it does. Christians say that they follow the Bible to the letter...but the Bible says that you are suppossed to sell your daughter into slavery (I forget which Gospel it is in). Do we do those kinds of things? NO! Because they are morally wrong to about 99.999% of people. </p>
<p>B) Have you read the Bible in the original aramaic that it was written in?</p>
<p>C) I am not Christian, but I was brought up Jewish and the Torah is the oldest religious scripture on Earth. I found that when I was reading my Torah portion for my Bar-Mitzvah, that the rules and guidelines set out in that scripture were entirely antiquated. There was no way that logically I could explain to myself that this was something I should follow.</p>
<p>D) Faith is important, but as you underestimate logic, all non-believers must overestimate it. As humans, we are intended to think about all aspects of life logically and make our decisions based on that. If you have taken the time to think through religion fully and exhausted every possible scenario and you still believe in God and religion, than you have that right. However, in your previous post you denied that you tried every possible logical thought. The one thing I have not seen you be able to do during this debate is actually disprove anything we have said.</p>
<p>Example of why prayer doesn't work:
Take a Texas-Texas A&M football game. Both sides and their respective fans pray for victory. God's job is to make everyone feel loved and happy. One team wins, one team loses. The losing team feels upset and angry. How can God let this happen if God's ultimate goal is for all creatures in his image to be happy?</p>
<p>What of those who are born into another culture and society and who are never exposed to Christianity? Are they to burn in hell too? If there was a God he would've made a more level playing ground for all of his children so that using only free will they too could spend all of eternity in heaven. All too often fanatical missionaries mispreresent the religion to the "heathens" of a region and as we have seen throughout history, bring more pain than comfort. How can God damn those poor souls to hell? I wouldn't bellieve the crazy missionaries either, in our culture it is the norm and people are often baptized before they can walk, those kids are already one up on the path of righteousness before they even know it. So it seems that there must be a lot more "westerners" in heaven. If the system is really as unjust as all of that, I'll rot in hell thank you.</p>
<p>you cannot prove or disprove God's existence. it's a leap of faith in both directions.</p>
<p>It's much less of a leap of faith to be open-minded about the matter, and postulate that a higher power may exist but it is beyond our comprehension, than to vehemently follow some random organized religion.</p>
<p>and its a leap of faith to believe that man created religion</p>
<p>I have a question for all the religious out there: why do you need God? Can't you be happy in a world without a God? Can't you be ethical in a world without divine morals? Can't you find comfort in the sheer beauty of Earthly life?</p>
<p>ivyleaguechamp...you do know your religious history yes?</p>
<p>The disciples of Jesus created Christianity, Muhammad created Islam and Buddha created Buddhism...those are the three major religions. So...how did man not create religion again?</p>
<p>shrek2004, I'm not going to continue anymore with this. If we were face to face, this conversation might be enjoyable and enlightening on both sides, but posting this on an internet message board seems to cheapen it somewhat. I respect your opinion completely, I just disagree. But honestly, we could debate this forever. I will answer your last few questions and then I suggest we agree to disagree.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I have not read the Bible in Hebrew and Aramaic, mainly because I know neither. However, I have attended several lectures on this subject and know a little about it.</p></li>
<li><p>In my reading of the New Testament, particularly the Gospels, I have never seem anything about selling one's daughters into slavery.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>collegeconfusion, that is an extremely good question. In fact, the Bible states on at least one occassion that those who are ignorant of Christ are not comdemned, as long as they seek the answer while alive.</p>
<p>the other pont of view is that religion is the ultimate realirty and spiritually is our connection to that</p>
<p>From which angle is religion the ultimate reality? what leads you to such a conclusion?</p>
<p>"The disciples of Jesus created Christianity, Muhammad created Islam and Buddha created Buddhism...those are the three major religions. So...how did man not create religion again?"</p>
<p>Jaug, you fail to see the point of questions like these. It's not whether men invented organized religions, it's whether men were able to come up with the idea of "God" by themselves. It's not as simple as it seems. Every idea we have has some cause (even if it's just our minds and not a real object out there), and because "God" does not correspond to any of our experiences, the idea we have of him must be caused by something outside ourselves. There is nothing in our world that is perfect, that is all powerful, that is infinite, that is outside time and space - and yet we have these concepts and use them. The human mind cannot imagine perfect or infinite, but it knows what these mean. They don't come about simply from the negation of our own state - finite, extended, imperfect - but because there is something else that causes this awareness in us, and we ascribe these definitions to "God." This isn't a question of an old bearded man dealing out judgments from a cloud, it's whether that concept - in whatever words Merriam-Webster defined it as - exists. Furthermore, going back to the cause of ideas. Everyone's familiar with the infinite regression questions, "where'd that come from?" "then where'd that come from?" all the way back to God, "who made God?" "where'd God come from?" The point of God is that he is the First Cause, the only infinite, only self-creating being, no beginning, no end. He's sometimes considered to be a philosophical necessity. (I just accidentally summarized most of Descartes' Third Meditation.)</p>
<p>As soon as you begin to ascribe characteristics to Him, to give him limits and imperfections, you're not dealing with that idea of God, but with one which there is something greater you can imagine - "that than which no greater can be conceived." This is the problem with polytheism, their Gods weren't perfect, they were really powerful humans, one could find fault in their judgments, and so one was not happy or convinced the Gods were good - and needing the Gods to be good is one of the pre-requisites for happiness. Even the Greeks moved away from this after a time, other Gods began to pale in comparison to Zeus, who took on a more omniescent role. This is also the problem with seeing God as an old man with a beard who sits on a cloud giving judgment. If you can conceive of something greater than that, you're not thinking of God.</p>
<p>As God leads to religion, it's supposed (hoped?) that the religion's values are the same as God's. If God created us, then ideally we would have the same concepts as good as he does. If this is not true, religion falls apart because we as humans cannot conceive of following those tenets. This is where ideas of good get hazy, but it is pretty much accepted that good does not mean momentary or passive happiness, but that good, or morality, corresponds to living "perfectly," as evil is imperfection. If this were true, we shouldn't dismiss the 10 Commandments or other rules as trying to control our lives and make us miserable, but as guides to living a good life - which alone can lead to true happiness. </p>
<p>A minor point - free will's place in Christianity should be obvious. The first story after creation, of Eve and the serpent - does that ring a bell? Forget the apple and the tree, she chose, she willed.</p>