To IB or not to IB ... That is the question

Parents Forum
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<p>Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
[that] might be represented by the smallest of acronyms such as AP or IB!</p>

<p>In many discussions on CC, there is an growing undercurrent that the IB is considered to stand for I am Better. While the program seems to be gaining momentum and popularity, there are also lingering questions about the lack of foundation of many popular conclusions. </p>

<p>The question is this: Can we really form a valid opinion about this program in light of the relatively small numbers of graduates from school that offer the FULL IB. Numbers such as "more than 800 schools" are tossed around, but so are "fewer than 35,000 graduates."</p>

<p>At the Upper St Clair high school in a prosperous suburb of Pittsburgh, the discussions about keeping the IB program have resulted in death threats and a lawsuit by the the ACLU--fueled by an insider with more than a passive interest. The propaganda disseminated by both sides in the "dabate" offers a fascinating and, of course quite biased, snapshot of the issues.</p>

<p>What do we really know about the IB? Is it really a Marxist program that is too costly for most districts? Or is it really a well disguised elitist program that will further divide the country in "have" and "have not"? Or is it is the ultimate panacea sought by every school district that is unable to shed the well deserved images of mediocrity and ineptitude?</p>

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<p>Top students usually want to spend their high school years in the company of other students who share their interests and priorities. Their parents usually want this, too. School systems want the top students to stay in the public schools, rather than going to private schools or moving to other districts. Communities want their schools to have programs that they can be proud of. </p>

<p>How can a school system satisfy all these constituencies? By creating some sort of elite program that will attract the top students and allow them to meet established goals that everyone can brag about. If a school system had all the time and resources in the world, it could create its own excellent program. But most systems don't have the resources. They need a good program designed by others. Where are they going to get one? Just click on <a href="http://www.ibo.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.ibo.org&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>My daughter is in a full IB diploma program. There's some political propaganda involved -- not all that much -- which she easily recognizes and doesn't especially mind, although she agrees with almost none of it. There's a lot of bureaucracy, paperwork, and trivial requirements, which she does object to and which are more important to her than the politics. There is a LOT of academic work. IB Higher Level courses are harder than most college courses. IB students take more college-level courses simultaneously than college students do. IB students are forced to take advanced courses in their worst subjects -- something that savvy students in regular programs can usually avoid. And IB students have to do an Extended Essay and complete Creativity/Action/Service requirements on top of their regular academic program.</p>

<p>Is it worth it? You bet it is. </p>

<p>My daughter, who is now a senior, has spent all of high school in the company of a group of young people so hardworking, so focused, so polite, so mature, and so civilized that it seems wrong to use the word "teenager" to describe them. Except in the few courses she has taken outside the IB program, she has spent her entire time in classes where discipline problems are nonexistent and where the teachers and students treat each other with a mutual respect otherwise unknown in high schools. Even as seniors, the majority of students in the IB program do not drink. Nobody does drugs. Nobody gets in trouble with the law. Nobody even gets suspended. Some of the kids in the IB program are absolutely brilliant. Most aren't. But you would be thrilled to have your son or daughter bring home any of them and announce that they were dating.</p>

<p>Would these kids have done so well and stayed out of trouble so completely if they were in the regular high school program? I don't know. But I wouldn't want to bet my kid's future on it.</p>

<p>In my opinion, the benefits of an IB diploma program -- or any "special" or "magnet" academic program -- have little to do with the specific content of that program. It's the people that matter. It's the kind of kids that these programs attract. If your kid is one of them, don't you want that kid to be in the company of others like him, so that peer pressure will be a good thing rather than a bad one?</p>

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<p>Marian, thank you for your response, which echoes what I have read before--although the assessment is in complete contradiction to what the IB offerings in our area. </p>

<p>May I ask if there a is a verifiable source to suport such as broad and far reaching statement as "IB Higher Level courses are harder than most college courses. IB students take more college-level courses simultaneously than college students do."</p>

<p>Except for "A learner's prior knowledge is the starting point for effective learning, " this seems in direct contradiction to the results of this study:</p>

<p>"National Research Council (2002). Learning and Understanding: Improving Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in US High Schools (2002) Committee on Programs for Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in American High Schools. Jerry P. Gollub, Meryl W. Bertenthal, Jay B. Labov, and Philip C. Curtis Jr., eds. Center for Education, Washington, DC: National Academy Press."</p>

<p>However, I do thank you for opining that "the benefits of an IB diploma program -- or any "special" or "magnet" academic program -- have little to do with the specific content of that program. It's the people that matter."</p>

<p>I happen to be in full agreement with that statement, but I have to point out that it also represents the biggest indictment of a program that is sold to districts for its academic rigor and superiority. The creation of well defined and self selecting castes is not exactly one of the purposes of our public education.</p>

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<p>my daughter is a college freshman now and graduated last May with an IB diploma- Many IB programs in the US are established as magnet programs or placed in schools to prevent middle class flight. And sometimes just the very fact that there are so few of these progams creates a demand- If you have this progam it must be something our school needs type of thing. I saw that happen in Fairfax county VA.</p>

<p>In some schools, the decision aboout which students will populate the classes is up to the student- in our local school, students choose to opt in or out. That being said, opting in requires a student to be willing to put up with and want to endure the rigors and the discipline required by the program and in a student's senior year each will be taking the "equivalent" of at least 6 college classes. There is a lot of pressure in our school for kids to be full IB Diploma candidates- and the kids are sometimes extraordinary and sometimes not and regarding their out of classroom behavior --I have heard tell that they are like most other teenagers- For the most part they are kids planning on attending 4 year colleges- some Ivy some not.</p>

<p>I have heard nothing poltical except that their is an emphasis on global not US perspective and for me that is a good thing. My daughter is now trying to keep up with tons of reading as a college freshman- the likes of which she had not seen in her IB program. But she sure did learn to manage her time and accomplish alot. Is it better than AP/ who knows ? it is different- the down fall of the IB program as I see it is the rigidity of the program.</p>

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<p>xiggi- "May I ask if there a is a verifiable source to suport such as broad and far reaching statement as "IB Higher Level courses are harder than most college courses. IB students take more college-level courses simultaneously than college students do.""</p>

<p>I can offer only a single source: my older daughter, now a junior at college and a graduate of the same IB program that my younger daughter is dealing with as a HS senior. After my younger D stayed up well past my bedtime again to complete her homework, I IM'd my older D with the question of which was more work, her college courses or the HS IB courses and she immediately responded that the IB courses were harder.</p>

<p>In the senior year the student is dealing 6 courses 5 days a week while at college 5 or even 4 may be the norm and they seldom meet nore than 3 days a week. Reflecting back on my time in college I never had a college schedule that called for 7.5 hours straight in class, every day, five days a week. </p>

<p>This year my D is having a particularly difficult time as some of her non-IB friends, who are headed for in-state schools or maybe to the world of work, will complete their requirements for graduation with only 3 or 4 classes a day. They leave school at noon and my D and the rest of the IB students are there until 2:45. She starts each day even earlier than the regular schedule at 7:15 with the elective Jazz/Acappella choir.</p>

<p>naxos- "I have heard nothing poltical except that their is an emphasis on global not US perspective and for me that is a good thing."</p>

<p>In the history of the Americas one of the texts used was Howard Zinn's A People's History. Zinn is a tired, old line, US-hating socialist. Otherwise I would agree with your assessment.</p>

<p>xiggi- "The creation of well defined and self selecting castes is not exactly one of the purposes of our public education."</p>

<p>What do you propose? The elimination of honor rolls, valedictorians, AP and IB classes, class rankings and even grades in HS, all methods of creating castes based on individual effort, achievement, superior ability and in many cases parental ambition? After HS college students are a well defined and self selected group. Should we replace the choice of whether to attend college with a universal lottery or draft? I thought we already had mediocrity in public education. You aren't arguing for more are you?</p>

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<p>2dsdad, my quick reply to the argument of college classes is very simple: there is no evidence that IB classes are college-level classes--except for the growing number of remedial classes that need to be offered to unprepared high schoolers-- and no amount of pretension will elevate the SL or HL beyond the level of pre-college that they are. Saying that IB classes are harder than MOST college courses is simply preposterous for its lack of foundation. </p>

<p>As far as the caste system, I am indeed opposed to any system that creates a school within a school and create phenomenoms such as the IB-bubble. The argument that such programs have been created to diminish a flight to private schools is particularly insidious. Attempting to create quasi private schools within the confines of public schools --and at taxpayers expenses--is most definitely not a positive step, and most definitely not one that will ameliorate the levels of our high schools. Elitist systems that attract the best do indeed benefit the best, but at the expense of the larger population because of the inherent segregation. Do we believe that students learn by mere osmosis? </p>

<p>Allocating the best teachers and better resources to a few is far from being a solution, and for what is worth rather removed from some of the egalitarian teachings of the IB.</p>

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<p>In our end of Fairfax County there are neighborhoods fighting tooth and nail to get redistricted out of an IB high school into an AP high school. Woodson put up a huge fight a couple of years ago to get redesignated an AP school.</p>

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<p>I can't speak to all the ins and outs of IB, we do have a fairly new program being offered at two schools in teh district- 0 &/or 7th period classes are offered to make sure students can take the full program.</p>

<p>Although it was an attractive proposistion for D to attend teh IB high school, it is smaller than some in Seattle & in a fairly decent building, we decided that we wanted more flexibility. Our nieces had taken the IB program in their school district, and from teh sounds of it, it seemed to really seperate the school between the IB kids and non IB kids.
( neither recieved the full diploma although they did quite well in school- and their college acceptances were good- but not outstanding- I have the impression, although I don't have any ancedotes to back it up, that despite being a much more common program than it used to be, IB is not necessarily fully understood by colleges)</p>

<p>The IB kids didn't have time to breathe and the non IB kids were seen as slackers by the IB kids, at the school my nieces attended. That really bothered me.</p>

<p>We decided that since D was more in the middle, that it served her better to be at school where some kids were taking a full load ( or practically) of AP classes, some were taking just a few, and there were regular and honors classes thrown into the mix as well.
All kids are encouraged and supported to try AP. This needs to be stressed a bit more, for parents like myself, who aren't really familar with AP, but having the AP program available, to any who want to try it , I hope encourages students like my daughter, who just a few years ago, was in special education, and was disillusioned with school and with herself as a learner.
At the IB program I toured, I had the impression that kids needed to participate in pre-IB from 9th grade, if not earlier, which put some kids and families off from either applying or attending the school.</p>

<p>She has taken a college prep curriculum since 9th grade, with a mix of regular, AP and honors classes. I really appreciate that she has had the opportunity to be in a very diverse school, and has a broader group of peers, than she might have had, if she had attended the school with the IB program.</p>

<p>My older daughter attended a school with neither AP or IB, and she managed to keep up with the reading and writing at Reed, so I am pretty confident that my younger daughter will be prepared for college with her program.</p>

<p>( I also have to say- that while I am not making the judgement that Marian has for her daughters school is incorrect- when I was growing up, it was well known to teens, that certain private especially Catholic schools had the best parties and wildest kids- I assume that their parents weren't aware, and I still think they were probably "good" kids, but that didn't mean they didn't let pretty loose.
Also- I know pretty well about 7 families who have their kids in the IB program in Seattle- this particular class strikes me as fairly wild, although their parents would not agree- on the other hand- my younger daughter and her friends seem much more responsible, and less inclined to push the envelope.
And again- I think high school is about more than academics.</p>

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<p>I did the IB program with an extra certificate (IB Biology HL, IB Chemistry HL, IB English HL, IB History HL, IB German SL, IB Psychology SL, IB Math Methods SL, and TOK) as well as taking a few AP courses (AP Physics C, AP Calc BC, and APES). I found little difference in the difficulty of the material in IB and AP- it was all the little extra assignments that made the difference. </p>

<p>Take AP classes. Add Internal Assessments, Oral Presentations, Group 4 projects, an External Essay, TOK paper/presentation, math portfolios, World Lit papers, and the required number of lab hours. Oh, and don't forget the volunteer hours (carefully distributed among action, creativity, and community service). Now you have a pretty good outline of IB. My senior year of IB was considerably harder than my freshman year of college. I'd heard that it would be, but I didn't really believe it until I experienced it. </p>

<p>I am a former member of the "IB bubble" that xiggi describes. At a high school where a grand total of 55% was tested to be on grade level, I NEEDED the IB program. I spent 13 years in a public school system, and 5 of those years were spend at a non-magnet school. I was bored out of my mind. My parents put my in a magnet Open Program elementary school, which was awesome. When I was bored in middle school, my parents moved me (kicking and screaming, I'm afraid) to a magnet IB school in the middle of a ghetto. I don't use that term lightly. We had a lock-down at least once a month, there were shootouts in the neighborhood, drug dealers on the bridge (ran from my school to the 'hood on the other side of the highway), and a wounded gunman ran across our campus. High school was better, but not by much. We had a gang fight between the Mexicans and the El Savadorans and had to have police literally patrolling the halls for the next few days. I was not present at the time, but two girls got in a fight last year, and one of them knifed the other with a steak knife.
<a href="http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/local_news/mecklenburg/?AC=&ArID=115231&SecID=3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/local_news/mecklenburg/?AC=&ArID=115231&SecID=3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/departments/instrAccountability/schlProfile05/profiles.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/departments/instrAccountability/schlProfile05/profiles.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So, no, I don't have a problem with IB. You shouldn't hold students back for the sake of struggling with students who don't want to learn. CC is often quite disconnected from reality: students self-studying APs, taking APs as freshmen, etc. Good grief, the students at my high school could barely read at a 7th grade level. Sorting students out by ability (regular, honors, advanced, AP, and IB) is a win-win situation.</p>

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<p>I looked into an IB program sat one of the local public HS for my D, now a sophomore in HS. I spoke with the person in charge of the program and she explained that the main difference between IB and AP is that IB is a complete program where all of the classes are more advanced than the norm, whereas in AP you pick and choose which classes you want to be more advanced. </p>

<p>My S graduated from HS last year after taking 6 AP classes all year long and he was also in the company of the brightest kids in his grade. Although both programs can be equally challenging depending on the amount of AP classes a student takes, I think that AP is better in that it's more flexible.</p>

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<p>My son's school is in the throes of establishing an IB program. This is Year 2. I was fairly involved in the set-up, because my son (and many of his friends) had tentatively signed up for the program, and I spent some significant time talking with the responsible people at the school, with IB representatives, and with other parents (one of whom, in Geneva on business, spent a couple of hours at the IB home office). All of the children of these parents, by the way, bailed on the program at the last minute, for the reasons that appear below.</p>

<p>A few comments based on that limited experience:</p>

<p>Elitist Program: At S's school (a large public magnet), the IB program was originally presented as an elitist program, but there was a revolt among the faculty when they realized that 70-80% of the top kids had signed up for it, and it was redesigned to make it less attractive to high-ranked kids (and then re-redesigned to make it a little more attractive, but not enough to pull more than a few of them back in). I think the school was perfectly happy with it's initial cohort that included 30 reasonably able kids, but by no means the creme de la creme.</p>

<p>Elsewhere in the Philadelphia public school system, the IB program is being implemented at two decidedly non-elitist neighborhood high schools (alongside an aggressive expansion of AP offerings in all of those schools). The district has a stated goal of making AP and IB classes available to all students in the system -- basically, to make certain all students are being challenged, not just the ones who self-select ant perform.</p>

<p>The IB reps were aware of this and supported it. I got no sense from them that they were marketing this as a private school within the public schools, or anything like that. In fact, it was clear talking to them that some of the programs they regarded as most successful were Catholic schools in small California cities that had gone all-IB. They seemed committed to the notion that IB should be a program for everyone, not just a thin layer of high-performing kids.</p>

<p>Reasons Why Elite Kids Bailed: Took too much time, so would limit extracurriculars (conflict with orchestra and chorus) and outside research programs/Intel participation (kids usually leave early to go to their labs). Made double-language study impossible (not an inherent problem of the IB program, but a definite feature of its implementation at this school). The teachers were not the best teachers, and the students could do a lot better picking teachers on their own. Also, the students were not the best students (as the support began to erode), and they could do better by flocking to the traditional courses where the elite meet (AP Physics C, some popular electives). Science and math were one-size-fits-all and not appealing to advanced students. Made taking popular electives and dual-registration college classes impossible. Not enough variety in classes offered. Made spring of senior year look awful, for no particular benefit. Tough to spend all your time with the same kids.</p>

<p>But -- IB kids will get a boost in class rank, since effectively they will get credit for taking more AP classes than any of the non-IB kids could take.</p>

<p>Reasons to Take IB: Much better, more thoughtful curriculum than AP courses. Method, not content orientation. If it works, it would be great.</p>

<p>My son decided to register for Latin IB rather than Latin 4 and Latin 5 AP because he liked the course design better (and all of them were taught by the same teacher in the same room at the same time). (Also, the school had added the Latin IB class and paid for training the Latin IB teacher specifically to accommodate him when he was still on board with the IB program.) He hasn't regretted that at all.</p>

<p>What Current IB Diploma Students (Reportedly) Think: They hate it. Not so much the work, which isn't more than the other kids do, but the amount of time spent in class, the lack of choices, the mediocrity of some of the teachers. It isn't clear that the program can work well with a limited number of students, but it would be very expensive to expand it to really provide a reasonable variety of course offerings.</p>

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<p>"As far as the caste system, I am indeed opposed to any system that creates a school within a school and create phenomenoms such as the IB-bubble. The argument that such programs have been created to diminish a flight to private schools is particularly insidious. Attempting to create quasi private schools within the confines of public schools --and at taxpayers expenses--is most definitely not a positive step. . ."</p>

<p>Does this logic also apply to the other end of the spectrum--the LD and ED (learning disabled and emotionally disturbed) classes that poplulate our public schools? My taxpayer dollars go to assist these kids in public education, so why shouldn't taxpayer dollars go to assist kids whose needs fall above the average? My understanding of public education is that it is meant to meet the needs of all the children that attend, and that is why there are public magnets and IB programs.</p>

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<p>Sunny+seas, are the LD and ED programs meant to upgrade the general level of the entire school? Programs such as the AP and IB do not fall in the same category, including the special programs for the gifted at the other end of the spectrum. They are supposed to be broad-based curriculum programs, not special needs.</p>

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<p>Xig--I don't get what you are saying. My point is simply in regards to the taxpayer issue~~public education, financed by the public, is there to meet the needs of all the children it serves, both academically gifted and academically challenged. And that is why we have programs like the IB and magnet schools. My kids are not IB kids, but I have no problems with a program like IB that can satisfy the needs of that population. Am I missing something here?</p>

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<p>We know a student who graduated from a full IB diploma program and is now at JHU. Said student took 300- and 400-level science courses freshman year at Hopkins (having HL'd a couple of sciences and AP'd others to get advanced placement, if not much credit). Said student reported that JHU is easier than IB.</p>

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<p>Coming from a current IB student:</p>

<p>I would've rather of taken Ap classes instead of Ib classes, although ib test are so much easier than AP test the extra work which must be done for for IB such as IA'S.EE.CAS.PE and all the other abbreviatios they have aren't worth it because in the end AP students get more credit than ib students...</p>

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<p>Xiggi,</p>

<p>Kids who haven't been exposed to excellent education aren't going to get one if we keep AP/IB out of the schools because it's "elitist." We can argue 'til the cows come home about whether AP/IB represent "best practices," but for the vast majority of school systems in this country, that is the functioning model they have to work with. </p>

<p>IMO, one needs to look at the gatekeeping practices of the individual schools. Some only let kids in AP classes if they feel the child will make a 4 or 5 on the test (and not lower the school's rankings and crash the local real estate market). Others require prerequisites such that only those who were savvy enough to play the game (or whose parents figured out the ropes) could gain access. </p>

<p>Other schools make AP available to everyone and place supports to help the kids -- extra tutoring, review sessions before the exams, teaching in a manner designed to get kids ready and capable of handling AP/IB by junior or senior year. </p>

<p>Does every student need to make a 4 or 5 to benefit from the AP experience? No. There was a school featured in the Washington Post recently where for the first time in 55 years, two students passed AP English with scores of 3. There was much justifiable celebration of this accomplishment, but the take-away feeling I had after reading the article was this: Look at all the other students in this school who have been mis-served by the educational process -- and this didn't start at the high school level. Writing off children is a systemic problem, and that system includes schools, families, governments and communities.</p>

<p>So count me in for rigor wherever we can find it and make it available to everyone who wants it. Let kids learn what it means to work hard for a goal.</p>

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<p>"What do we really know about the IB? Is it really a Marxist program?"</p>

<p>Gosh, I hope so! ;)</p>

<p>(but then we did the Gandhian homeschool thing....)</p>

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<p>I'm taking IB. Not full diploma (I've come to the conclusion that the full diploma, which isn't even acquired until the spring of senior year, isn't worth the trouble), but about 1 HL and 1 SL class away.</p>

<p>I think what the IB program needs to do is really be honest about the style of its rigor. The idea that the IB program produces well-rounded students is laughable. The sheer amount of studying and out of school academic work is astounding, and if students want to tell colleges they really took the 'most rigorous' courses, they are forced to drop electives that may be in their field of interest for their future career, drop activities, and get an unhealthy amount of sleep (a problem exacerbated by high schools that start classes before 8 AM).</p>

<p>The CAS is the most misguided part of the IB program... the 150 hours could be easily completed in a single summer, even in a single month. One activity can fill your entire requirement for one of the three sections in a single week.</p>

<p>And the essay? A waste of time.</p>

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<p>Motherdear- regarding Woodson- My understanding is that first the parents wanted the progam despite the relative high SES staus of the student population when compared to the other fairfax Cty high schools that had the program. And that the admin powers that were initally agreed to let IB and AP stay together-for Woodson which had not been an option at the other county high schools that were forced to choose- but then the woodson community was informed that they also had to choose on or the other program THEN the parental revolt began and for good reason.</p>

<p>In a high school setting where students are in school every day from 8-3 and then participating in EC's, the workload for the IB student is overwhelming and time management is a huge issue aas well as the willingness to give up most free time to get all the work dne- but I am not sure that the IB program individual courses are = to college classes at a top college.</p>