To IB or not to IB ... That is the question

Parents Forum
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<p>calmom, that's why the IB program isn't recommended for everyone. AP allows you to pick and choose; IB has more rigid guidelines. Compare it to Chicago and Brown, if you will. Very different in their philosophies, but both providing excellent educations. I preferred the structure of the IB program and thrived in it. It is only as intense as you allow it to be; you have some flexibility in choosing your IB classes. IB teaches you time management, which is a major reason IB grads do so well. It is quite possible to do exceedingly well in IB and be very active ec-wise. </p>

<p>xiggi, I find your comparison of AP and IB exams interesting. Take the AP English Lit exam, for example. For anyone who does moderately well on the verbal section of the SAT, the English Lit exam is pathetically simple. It consists mostly of multiple choice and a few essays. The IB English exam is a horse of an entirely different color. You're given a prose passage and poem and told to write about one of them. No multiple choice, no short answer, nothing. It's just you and 6-7 pages of analysis. See why IB is useful? How many college English classes use multiple choice????? The level of analysis and critical thinking IB promotes are excellent for college preparation. Only the IB science exams contain multiple choice, and even that's one paper out of three.</p>

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<p>Yes, but the point is that accounts like the 3 kids referenced TJMom's post suggest that the IB Diploma is not really suitable for teenagers. There may be a very few who are resilient enough to handle the stress..... but if there are kids who need to be medicated to handle the stress, then its just not an appropriate learning enivoronment for kids. </p>

<p>It is a case of adults coming up with an unreasonably rigid set of expectations, and then creating an environment which creates psychological pressure on kids and their parents to enroll based on perceived prestige associated with the diploma, or feelings of academic competitiveness, etc. In other words, kids enter the program because they think that they need to do so to be competitive for college; parents encourage it because they want to see their kids have the "best" education evailable....... but that doesn't make it right. </p>

<p>I posted a similar sentiment in another thread, but I'll repeat it here: you are dealing with developing brains in developing bodies. If kids don't get a good balance of sleep, nutrition, periods of relaxation along with school work at this age, it can be physically & emotionally damaging. </p>

<p>I don't see a problem with the courses at an individual level -- but either there is a huge myth about how tough the whole diploma program is, or else the truth is that it is not something appropriate for adolescents. Maybe a somewhat toned down version..... </p>

<p>Anyway, I assume that all IB programs are probably not the same, and perhaps these horror stories such as the kid attempting suicide are a rarity.... but I just sense that this is too much for most young kids to take on.</p>

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<p>IB and AP tests differ in important ways, reflecting the different emphases of the two programs.</p>

<p>My daughter took both the IB SL Spanish exam and the AP Spanish Language exam last May. Although the levels of sophistication of the two exams were similar, the emphases were different. The IB exam focused much more heavily on the ability to prepare essays and oral presentations about academic topics in Spanish. The AP exam, on the other hand, was much more demanding in terms of vocabulary.</p>

<p>For example, both exams required the writing of an essay. The IB essay counted for a much larger proportion of the overall exam score than the AP essay did, and the topics on the IB exam were more sophisticated. However, the IB exam gave students a choice of several possible essay topics, while the AP exam did not allow any choice. Students who happened not to have much vocabulary pertaining to the specific topic of the AP essay were therefore at a disadvantage. Students writing the IB essay could choose the topic where their vocabulary was strongest.</p>

<p>Different strokes for different folks (although at my daughter's school, an awful lot of the folks took both exams).</p>

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<p>I dunno. The IB is modeled on the French baccalauréat and while lots of French kids fail the bac, many succeed as well. These are the kids who are university-bound, just as IB or AP takers here are college bound.</p>

<p>My 9th grade classes:
French literature
History
Ancient Greek
Latin
English
Geography
Physics
Biology
Chemistry
Math</p>

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<p>I guess my issue is that so much time and resources are set aside for so few, and it does come at te expense of the rest of the school...resources are limited and if a disportinate amount goes to a small percentage of students, is that fair for the average student?</p>

<p>when do these kids get to be kids, its great, working hard, etc., but at what expense? somehow we had generations of Americans doing well, creating things, excelling in college while having a "normal" highschool experience</p>

<p>I think in some ways, the IB student, because there is so much "work", it can be a way of isolating themselves from things....and we have seen kids staying with the program even though miserable...why?</p>

<p>I wonder if studies have been done comparing the success of regular and AP students to IB students, and happiness....I don't think the IB supporters would actually support such a study because they might not like what they hear</p>

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<p>I originally enrolled in the full IB program and then pulled back taking 4 IB classes (I did this mainly because the only science subject offered was Bio and I was much better at physics). IB does put a LOT of strain on students. But it is THE most effective way of preparing people for going to a rigorous university. My guess is that those who do not want the pressure/challenge/time consumption of IB do not want this type of university anyway. I wrote a 20+ page paper in grade 11 for Bio HL which none of my peers did. xiggi mentioned on the first page (paraphrasing here, please correct me if you think I've misconstrued) that there is no proof that IB prepares people better except that more kids needs to take remedial courses. I think this is the proof! I'm sorry but kids should not be taught in a 100 course (like they are in my hometown university) where to put a thesis statement and what it is. I learned that in grade 9.</p>

<p>IB exams also are the best example of what uni exams are like. Taking multiple 2 or 3 hour long exams for one course definately gives you a taster. IB is definately not for everyone and as I mentioned, I could not do the full courseload and ultimately pulled back to 4 IB classes (German, Math, English and History) but it was well worth it and I know that I got a better education than my friends who took AP courses.</p>

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<p>IB vs. AP:</p>

<p>I never liked multiple choice exams, which is why I prefer the IB-type exams over the AP tests. But IB essays work best for the humanities and social sciences that involve lots of writing. Math/science college courses do have plenty of multiple choice exams. It is no surprise that the IB science curriculum is considered to be a bit weaker than the AP curriculum as per NAS report which Xiggi linked earlier.
So I'm not surprised either that TJ students considered the IB program to be harder than the math/science heavy TJ curriculum. It's a matter of individual strengths fitting the different emphases of specific curricula.</p>

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<p>Another problem with science is that IB students can only take one (or in rare cases, two) HL sciences, while students in regular programs can often juggle their schedules to include AP Bio, AP Chem, and one or both AP Physics courses. In some special schools (TJ, Blair, etc.) science-oriented kids can also take specialty courses more advanced than AP. </p>

<p>Moreover, IB HL courses must be completed in 12th grade, not earlier, while AP courses are often taken earlier. As a practical matter, this means that IB kids get screwed on the SAT II Subject Tests in sciences, which are often required for college admission for prospective science and engineering majors.</p>

<p>Savvy AP students know that the best way to get a high score on an SAT science subject test (especially bio or chem) is to take the AP course in 11th grade (or earlier) and take the SAT subject test at the end of the course. IB kids can't do this. At the end of 11th grade, they have only covered half the topics in a 2-year HL science course.</p>

<p>I know of a kid who took AP Chemistry on top of a full IB program in 11th grade primarily so that he could score well on the SAT Chemistry Subject Test. His sanity can be questioned.</p>

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<p>This is why I think S1 would have been well served by the IB program and S2 was better off with APs.</p>

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<p>I had thought the IB structure was modelled on British A-levels. How do the British universities do admissions if kids don't take their A-levels until, effectively, the end of their secondary school career?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I had thought the IB structure was modelled on British A-levels. How do the British universities do admissions if kids don't take their A-levels until, effectively, the end of their secondary school career?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Aren't gap years practically required?</p>

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<p>Same thing with baccalaur</p>

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<p>and yet many countries base college admittance on just a few tests....have a bad day, well, too bad for you</p>

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<p>So what's the answer? Universal gap years? University admittance is essentially single-factor based on the test, so everything can be sorted out in the month after the test results are in? (There are fewer choices, after all, and lots more collusion, e.g., can't apply to both Oxford and Cambridge. Still, the UC system is not so different, and it takes 4-1/2 months to go through its process.)</p>

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<p>for the bac, there is a chance to re-take in July.

[quote]
University admittance is essentially single-factor based on the test, so everything can be sorted out in the month after the test results are in?

[/quote]

Yes, prety much so. Remember that the A-levels taking population is far smaller than the population of SAT takers in CA alone. Students are limited to the number of universities they can apply to, and given that most do not have campuses of their own, they tend to live at home and thus apply to local universities. They also have to choose what major they want to pursue at the time of application since specialization happens right away. No listing "undecided" as to prospective major. No consideration of ECs, and what the student may or may not contribute to diversity, to sports, musical scene, etc... My niece at 21 graduated last June from architecture school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
xiggi, I find your comparison of AP and IB exams interesting. Take the AP English Lit exam, for example. For anyone who does moderately well on the verbal section of the SAT, the English Lit exam is pathetically simple. It consists mostly of multiple choice and a few essays. The IB English exam is a horse of an entirely different color. You're given a prose passage and poem and told to write about one of them. No multiple choice, no short answer, nothing. It's just you and 6-7 pages of analysis. See why IB is useful? How many college English classes use multiple choice????? The level of analysis and critical thinking IB promotes are excellent for college preparation. Only the IB science exams contain multiple choice, and even that's one paper out of three.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Warblers, thanks for the comment. As you may know, I am not exactly a fan of the AP tests and especially not of what Marite has dubbed the "mile wide -inch deep" curriculum. Your examples are also hinting on the parts of the IB I do ... like! Despite that I'd find the exercise of writing a 4000 essay MUCh easier than writing an equally strong 500-1000 essay, I applaud any requirement that makes a student think enough to be able to write a few cogent arguments on a blank page. </p>

<p>This said, I believe that the IB English is not beyond criticism. For instance, one could find the dismay of the teachers at the TAS in Taipei when the English Honor classes were abandoned for a higher focus on the IB program. One disgruntled teacher posted several letters decrying the negative of focusing exclusively on 4 to 6 works. He cited the scope of the AP as being wider and more appropriate as it forced the students to read more than a handful of books. Obviously, his was only a voice among many, but nonetheless one of an insider who had a passion for teaching English as it should.</p>

<p>The reality is rather simple: while being better than your average class, no program is perfect. And, in so many words, it is the misrepresentation of the value and applicability of a program--any program--that I fear. While the IB program has been developed over the past 40 years, its schools were mostly niche players, which offered an alternative program to a local system that was NOT necessarily inferior. This said, there are also many reports that the IB schools, in some cases,are indeed the school for the best of the best (see above posts) and I have no reason to doubt the accounts. However, after its modest introduction in our country, the program seems destined to be adopted by a much larger audience with potential negative impacts. </p>

<p>I have cited this example before, and I'll repeat it. I simply do not see how the introduction of the IB program could represent an improvement at a high school such as El Dorado in El Paso. I see the success of the IB program as mythical as the Eldorado itself! The school is not exactly rolling in the dough, and its faculty has demonstrated its inability to raise the level beyond the merely acceptable. The IB program is expensive and it requires dedicated resources and a ... competent staff and faculty. If such as school finds a way to qualify for the IB, serious questions might be posed about the minimum level of qualifications of a school. How do we go from the British example of excellence to one of the poorest and uncompetitive districts? </p>

<p>And this goes back to Warblers' post, as one might wonder how will the students fulfill the strong requirements in critical reading and writing after having lagged the country by a wide margin. How do we expect someone to jump from barely understanding elementary textbooks to write an essay on global warming or sustainable development? How do we expect a student to present a 15 minutes elocution on Hamlet when he can't compose a single grammatically correct sentence? </p>

<p>The IB program has many great attributes, and might be the best thing ever for students who have Ivy League ambitions. But, why is it introduced at schools that will not see 10% of the students entering its buildings ever graduating with a college degree ... including a vocational degree or a two-community college degree. For a school such as El Dorado, the IB is a pipe dream with will join many others in the junkyard of broken promises. Graduates will continue to seek colleges that have no admissions' requirements and little incentive to graduate anyone. Students will continue to apply to jobs where employer hire the "best they can get" in exchange of minimum wages. </p>

<p>For students at El Dorado--and about evry other school in our area--The last two years of high school should be devoted on preparing ALL students for a realistic next step and focus on acquiring or improving skills they will need to attend technical schools, community colleges, and have a fighting chance to graduate.</p>

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<p>The IB is not based on A-levels, it is based on the French bac. A-levels are similar to IB higher level exams, and AS levels (the one before A-levels) are similar to IB standard exams. Most people in the UK take 3/4 subjects at A-level - usually, either all sciences, or all humanities/soc sci/languages, or a mix. In the IB, all of these are required. </p>

<p>Pre-A level, most students will have studied GCSEs and AS levels, which account for matriculation requirements at university (although this is basically a formality, it is assumed that to progress to A-level you will have GCSEs and AS-levels). Most of the weight in applications is based on predicted A-level grades and the personal statement. </p>

<p>Marian: gap years aren't required, although many people do take them. You apply to universities beforehand though, usually!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I had thought the IB structure was modelled on British A-levels. How do the British universities do admissions if kids don't take their A-levels until, effectively, the end of their secondary school career?

[/quote]

If A-levels work the same way as IB does, the university will give you a "conditional" or "unconditional" offer of acceptance (or reject you). If you're lucky enough to get an unconditional offer, you're good to go. If you get a conditional offer, you're under pressure to perform at a certain level (like getting a 40 on your IB exams). If you don't meet that, you're kind of screwed. </p>

<p>Marian, I took IB Biology HL, IB Chemistry HL, and AP Physics C my senior year, and another person did too (we both went to Duke). Then again, many people said we were crazy. :p</p>

<p>For biology and chemistry, I strongly disagree that AP is stronger. IB covers many extra topics ("Options") that AP doesn't have nearly enough time to get to. For example, my chem class studied environmental chem, fuels & energy, and further organic chemistry as its options. This put me far ahead of my AP Chem peers here. For biology AP and IB are more even, with IB preferring breadth to AP's depth. AP is much better for physics, however. Even Physics HL doesn't require calculus, which is a severe handicap. </p>

<p>
[quote]
why is it introduced at schools that will not see 10% of the students entering its buildings ever graduating with a college degree ... including a vocational degree or a two-community college degree.

[/quote]

If their school system works like ours did, it's to boost the school's profile.
Add IB students = higher test scores = more funding
This is the trend in CMS, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. IB was taken away from two of the schools I attended, and both schools have plummeted in student accountability tests.</p>

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<p>"If A-levels work the same way as IB does, the university will give you a "conditional" or "unconditional" offer of acceptance (or reject you). If you're lucky enough to get an unconditional offer, you're good to go. If you get a conditional offer, you're under pressure to perform at a certain level (like getting a 40 on your IB exams). If you don't meet that, you're kind of screwed."</p>

<p>Yep!</p>

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<p>warbler is right. In the UCAS system you file one app, one personal statement and list the course you are applying for at each school...up to 6. Then your offers (hopefully)come back...conditions such as all 7's in your HL subjects, or a total point score etc., or unconditional. You may have 6 offers, 1 or none. You then either accept an unconditional offer, or two conditional with the second having conditions you are more likely to be able to meet (in case you don't get what you need for the first.)</p>