To IB or not to IB ... That is the question

Parents Forum
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<p>From the IBO:
The International Baccalaureate Organization was founded in Geneva, Switzerland in 1968 as a non-profit educational foundation. Its original purpose was to facilitate the international mobility of students preparing for university by providing schools with a curriculum and diploma recognized by universities around the world. Since then its mission has expanded, and it now seeks to make an IB education available to students of all ages.</p>

<p>As the mom of two IB diploma holders (int'l school) my guess is that a large part of the recognition afforded the IB is the amount of external grading and verification that goes into final diploma scores. A 7 is a 7 is a 7. Colleges don't have to do as much adjusting based on the school, since the school gets "dinged" for predicted scores that vary by more than one number from the actual (and actually send the exam to an additional grader when this happens).It also works a bit like a good US liberal arts school in terms of breadth and depth....while ensuring that a balance of non academic takes place via the CAS component. Kids also learn to research and write. </p>

<p>And fyi...both dd's are at ivies and think college is easier than the IB. Some of this is probably because they're able to choose what to study...and some is because they're only taking four classes a semester. Either way, the IB served them well and while they would tell you they really didn't like it, they do like what it did for them.</p>

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<p>My childrens' high school was one of the first to adopt the IB in Canada and it was in large measure because one of the school's objects was to prepare students for the possibility of going to university abroad, particularly to the UK and France. The fact that it is an IB school has made it a draw for students who want a challenging academic program and those who don't like it tend to go elsewhere. The IB is not compulsory at the school but virtually all of the students get the diploma when they graduate.</p>

<p>My son finished the IB and is now a sophmore at a highly selective US university. He would say that he was extremely well prepared academically for his freshman year.</p>

<p>That being said, it isn't for everyone. However, I think those who complete the program are well served.</p>

<p>My daughter is in her final year of high school and is in the middle of deciding where to go to university. We have visited schools in the UK as well as a dozen or so schools in the US. The impression I get is that the selective US schools don't particularly care too much about the IB - if it was available and you chose not to take it they make knock you a bit; if you take it they don't seem to put much weight on it, if any. An admissions officer at one of the most selective schools told me that they ignore predicted IB scores and look only to the student's course scores and the resulting unweighted GPA. By contrast, I have the impression that in the UK and Canada predicted IB scores are given more weight.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
An admissions officer at one of the most selective schools told me that they ignore predicted IB scores and look only to the student's course scores and the resulting unweighted GPA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think the kids at the U.S. IB school where my daughter is a senior have ever even heard of predicted scores.</p>

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<p>Speaking from personal experience, I have been accepted to take the IB program, and I have declined it. I don't think there's anything wrong with having an "elite" group of people per se, but I think that I should take advantage of the diversity in my school and learn from it, especially during my high school years before I go off "into the real world". Isn't this the time of to learn about different people's experiences, and gain a bigger picture in life? There's just less chance to learn these things if I'm around the same kinds of people all the time. I want to be reminded that not necessarily everyone in the world thinks like / wants / hopes for the same things I do. Last thing I need is everyone around me stressing out about grades and killing each other for val status. There's far worse things that can happen to one's life and usually you don't learn them from the grade-stressed out kids (I guess that's kinda like IB?).</p>

<p>Plus, if all the fuzz about the difficulty of IB is true, WHY would anyone want to go through that when there's an equally (or even more) valid option of taking AP classes? Maybe this is a parent's forum and so everyone thinks that teenagers have nothing better to do with their lives than study, but seriously, no one wants to kill themselves over a program that really may or may not help them in the actual admission process. Of course, I'm sure there are lots of kids out there that want to be "challenged" for it's own sake, but I think I'd settle wonderfully with taking an AP load where I actually get to share my experiences with people from all walks of socioeconmic class and life.</p>

<p>And by the way, one of the main reasons why I didn't want to go to IB was because of the super-stressed out IB students pretty much venting on CC. That's not my idea of a good high school experience. And for all out there that think college admission is worth killing your high school life for... colleges aren't going to kill each other to get an IB student over an AP student, as far as I understand it.</p>

<p>Edit: Just to say that I'm not against IB.</p>

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<p>I'm taking 4 IB classes and really not feeling the stress yet. <em>shrug</em></p>

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<p>"The IB is not based on A-levels, it is based on the French bac. A-levels are similar to IB higher level exams, and AS levels (the one before A-levels) are similar to IB standard exams. Most people in the UK take 3/4 subjects at A-level - usually, either all sciences, or all humanities/soc sci/languages, or a mix. In the IB, all of these are required."</p>

<p>My S in the Cambridge Programe here in the US. There are a handful of US HS that offer the program. They take the British A-levels with hope of earning a AICE diploma. I can say that the schools sell it as a math and science program. In the 9th and 10 th grade students take IGSCE classes and taking IGSCE exams (they are similar to the O-levels) Starting 11th grade they take their first A-level exams. S has had to learn US and British terms in math and science(gradient is slope) The school lets them do both the A level and the AP exam if they feel the content is similar. So far S has passed all of the A-levels and AP exams taken. </p>

<p>He has friends in schools with IB and see his friends do what he calls busy work-- writing for the sake of writing. He has friends --all boys who have dropped to non diploma seeking students. Mostly girls are finishing the IB program at this other HS. Mostly boys are in the AICE program at his HS. The AICE diploma requires passing A-levels in 3 areas--Language, Sciences & Math, and Social Sciences. </p>

<p>I really think that the IB program is good for a few self driven students--mostly girls. The AP and AICE programs are more flexible, they allow students to take classes and exams that interest them. S's school offers 5 AICE science courses, you only need 2 to get your diploma.</p>

<p>Today, my son finished a visit at the Coast Guard Academy. He sat in on Calc. and Physics classes and remarked that they were doing the same work he was in his class this year. So any of these programs will prepare them for college, if they want to finish. I haven't met many that have finish a full IB program, only one and she overdosed herself her senior from the pressure.</p>

<p>The University of Florida offers on it's website credit table for A/AS level exams.</p>

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<p>"An admissions officer at one of the most selective schools told me that they ignore predicted IB scores and look only to the student's course scores and the resulting unweighted GPA."</p>

<p>I haven't heard of predicted IB scores. The IB exams senior year aren't even given until after the kids have to notify schools of their decisions about accepting offers of admission (May 1st in most cases) and the test results aren't reported until after graduation. So US colleges are basing admissions decisions on the transcripts up through the first half of senior year for IB students, just like they do for other students.</p>

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<p>That is not necessarily true. My son applied to and was conditionally accepted to UCSB based on his final IB scores. I can't remember what score they wanted but it was like a UK conditional acceptance. It certainly wasn't 40 pts. But I remember at the time being "impressed" that they understood the idea of conditional acceptance. This may have been since he was studying abroad?</p>

<p>By the way, predicted scores are one of the mainstays of the program. Teachers must send a predicted score into the main IB office before the exams. Some colleges & scholarship programs want to see these predicted scores as one element on which to base their acceptances. Some schools do not give out these scores to students. Some do. When the main IB office issues final scores these predicted scores come into play. If they are off the mark for a student, that individual student's exams & various assessments are reevaluated. It also gives the teachers a heads up on how well they are assessing their students' ability and how well a school is doing overall for their IB students. It keeps everyone on their toes.</p>

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<h1>52-marite</h1>

<p>"I was taken aback by the American presumption that one could decide on whether to admit a student essentially on the basis of work done through 11th grade."</p>

<p>That is true for ED/EA decisions. Regular admissions (most students) decisions aren't made until half way through the senior year, by which time it should be pretty clear what the capabilities of the student are. I suppose the whole process could be pushed back to June to include one more marking period but with little added benefit.</p>

<p>" At least 1/3 of bac takers flunk it."</p>

<p>According to those who run the IB program at my Ds school 75% of IB students nationally (US) get their diplomas. At our school the number is actually 79%.</p>

<h1>28-xiggi</h1>

<p>"Marian, and if I gave the impression that I do not see the value of a program such as the IB, I also have to apologize."</p>

<p>Given that you have taken shots at every argument advanced in favor of IB and similar programs and offered many arguments against it, you will have to forgive me if I am left with the impression that you do not see any value in it.</p>

<p>I found odd the one student's comment that he/she does not want to participate in IB because it would limit his/her experiencing the diversity of the student body. I am left to wonder what is meant by that. At least in our school district, which has open enrollment in all schools (and which provides for transportation for those students who wish to attend the IB program at the one school that offers it if I am not mistaken), there is no more segregation by race, ethnicity or economic class beyond that reflected by the school district in general. The reality is that our school district and our town, like many in America does not represent a cross section of the population. But enrolling in IB won't make that worse (or better).</p>

<p>I would agree with other posters that the IB curriculum is restrictive when it comes to choices. Because of the requirements that must be fulfilled, the limited number of teachers that are IB trained and the limited number of sections in each course offered, there is very little flexibility in scheduling. This is a known problem with the program that any student or parent should be aware of before enrolling. My D took an art elective last year and thoroughly enjoyed it. This year there is an IB art class but she cannot take it because of conflicts with the other classes she is required to take. I encouraged her to either drop some IB courses (making her ineligible for the diploma) so that she could take the course, or to even drop out entirely of IB if it meant that much to her but she chose to stay. It was her choice.</p>

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<p>"My son applied to and was conditionally accepted to UCSB based on his final IB scores."</p>

<p>I think most college offers of admission are subject to the student maintaining good grades through the end of the senior year and can be withdrawn if there is evidence that the student blows off the last semester once an acceptance is in hand. But to make acceptance subject to obtaining specific test results that won't be known until the summer, long after admission to any other schools except community colleges is possible, seems a bit strict.</p>

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<p>2dsdad:</p>

<p>My comments reflect my French background. I understand that many students in the IB program choose not to take the tests and still get admitted into American colleges. That would not be the case for students who failed the bac. So for French students, college plans cannot be really made until bac results are in.
Things may have changed since reforms, but in my days, one waited until after the results to apply to university.</p>

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<p>Yeah, it seems that way. It is a fairly common practice in Europe; I don't know about Asian universities or elsewhere. From observing the process this year, we had several students not knowing which university they would attend in the UK until around a month ago. If the predicted marks are off from the actual final marks, it can cause some problems. In the states, it usually doesn't matter and that is why I mentioned UCSB and wonder if that is a trend.</p>

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<p>Are IB students in the IB program in schools basically in classes with the same kids for almost all classes? So for 5-6 classes, are they with the same 25 kids?</p>

<p>If you have the same kids all the time, you get the same input....in literature class, in history, in ethics. whatever...</p>

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<p>CGM, I think that is true. You get to know the group you are with very well for your last two years because as a diploma student you take the same 7 classes together and it is basically a two year program. That said, schools can handle how they set up the program within certain guidelines in various ways. Some schools combine AP and IB classes so maybe in those cases there would be more of a crossover of students. I am not familiar at all with that sort of set up.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

52-marite

" At least 1/3 of bac takers flunk it."</p>

<p>According to those who run the IB program at my Ds school 75% of IB students nationally (US) get their diplomas. At our school the number is actually 79%.</p>

<h1>28-xiggi</h1>

<p>"Marian, and if I gave the impression that I do not see the value of a program such as the IB, I also have to apologize."</p>

<p>Given that you have taken shots at every argument advanced in favor of IB and similar programs and offered many arguments against it, you will have to forgive me if I am left with the impression that you do not see any value in it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>2dsdad, it is your prerogative to read selectively, and it is mine not to discuss every single point in a Socratic way. However, for one who is seemingly wrapped up in the virtues of a program that purports to have a "global" scope, you may want to shed a few provincial views. </p>

<p>Inasmuch as Marite answered you in a very tactful way, I will add that it was rather easy to understand that Marite was taking about the french "bac" and not the International version. </p>

<p>Further, you may want to do some reading on the issues of predicted IB scores. Even if this issue has a larger impact on international students, it is part of the IB.</p>

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<p>CGM- in my daughter's school this year there are 65 senior IB students and there are two or three sections of the different classes offered. Since most kids take most of the same classes they do end up spending a lot of time with the same group of kids. IB classes are open to anyone who wants to take them. I have no idea how many non-IB students take just one or two classes without pursuing the full curriculum. </p>

<p>That is 65 IB students out of a senior class of about 650. Most of my daughter's classes run about 15-20 students. Because of an oddity in scheduling, her IB Bio section has six kids in it.</p>

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<p>just a footnote on predicted scores-these are extremely important in the IB as this is the score you will get in the unlikely event your exam is lost or destroyed (and since the exams are mailed around the world to examiners this must happen although I have no personal knowledge). They are due to the IB sometime in the spring.</p>

<p>At my dd's school virtually all students are full diploma students (the most common reason for not is a transfer in during senior yr when courses the student was studying elsewhere are not available) and the pass rate for full diploma candidates is usually 100%...every couple of years someone has a failing condition, like not enough points in HL subjects, even though they have enough points overall...oddly enough the two times this has happenned it was to students with Math, Physics and Chem as HL subjects.</p>

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<p>sarap- is this an IB program in a US school or abroad?</p>

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<p>xiggi-"Inasmuch as Marite answered you in a very tactful way..."</p>

<p>Was I being tactless in my response to marite? I apologize if I was. I was providing a comparison with the pass rates for the IB Diploma in this country. I am aware that other countries have other systems for admission to higher education that, in some cases, depend on a single exam and failure means no admission. </p>

<p>And I am also aware that the original intent of the IB program was to provide a standardized college prep program in parts of the world where such programs were not available. I think this quote about the original purpose of the IB program has already been referenced here:</p>

<p>"Its original purpose was to facilitate the international mobility of students preparing for university by providing schools with a curriculum and diploma recognized by universities around the world."</p>

<p>xiggi-"Further, you may want to do some reading on the issues of predicted IB scores. Even if this issue has a larger impact on international students, it is part of the IB."</p>

<p>Thank you. I tried to ejamacate myself and it is true that predicted grades are a part of the process. In searching the IBO website regarding predicted scores, I found 37 references, 36 of which dealt with non-US programs. One dealt with the IB evaluation program overall and would apply to the US. Under the heading of How Students are Assessed: Principles and Practice, there is this description of predicted grades-</p>

<p>"The predicted grade is the teacher’s prediction of the grade
the candidate is expected achieve in the subject, based
on all the evidence of a candidate’s work and the teacher’s
knowledge of IB standards. Predicted grades are also
required for Theory of Knowledge and the Extended Essay.
Predicted grades are used by grade award meeting when
considering grade distributions. They may also be used by
the Final Award Committee as additional information about
candidates who are subject to special consideration."
-A Guide to the IB Diploma Programme for Univeristies and Colleges (page 8)
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/fmr7g%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://tinyurl.com/fmr7g&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So, it is correct that predicted grades are used and have some influence on the final grades. In those programs where the final scores and the awarding of the IB Diploma may determine admission to college, I am sure predicted grades are given great importance. In the US, where high school graduation and college admission are not tied to the IB scores or the Diploma, they may not be discussed as much. In my children's school, although I am sure the teachers provide predicted scores, they are not discussed at all. Hence my questions for those who mentioned the importance of predicted scores. And were you not the one who started this thread on the appropriateness of IB in US public schools?</p>

<p>"However, for one who is seemingly wrapped up in the virtues of a program that purports to have a "global" scope, you may want to shed a few provincial views. "</p>

<p>The use of an ad hominem argument suggests you have run out of meaningful points to make about the original subject.</p>

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<p>2dsdad- my kids went to int'l schools abroad. It seems to me that the IB program overseas is VERY different than those in the US. Last year, due to an impending move as a result of a corporate merger, I looked at IB programs in a number of states, looking for a program my then rising sr could transfer into. And found one...out of about 8 states. Sometimes the course offerrings just didn't line up...but often the program just wasn't anywhere as strong as the one she was coming out of.</p>

<p>And FYI...she was admitted reg decision to Harvard. It is a long story but there was some ? about whether or not she could return to the country we came from to sit her exams...when we contacted H believe me they cared about whether or not their diploma candidate admit would actually get her IB diploma! </p>

<p>All of the schools (and all were US) she applied to asked for predicted grades. But predicted grades do not have an influence on a individual candidates final grade...it is just a prediction by the teacher, who has access to all internal assessment, externallly assessed assignments, papers and the students mock IB exam grades. When the IB talks about using the predictions to determine the grade awards, I think it is after all exams are graded when they decide where the cutoff for 7/6/5 etc is...in other words, each exam has it's own curve and they vary by both subject, exam session and paper type (there are 1,2 or sometimes 3 "papers" (exams) per subject). A 50% in math HL might be a 7...but a 50% in math methods might be a 5...and a 50% in Chem SL might be a 3...</p>

<p>The "special consideration" referred to in the info from the IB generally refers to candidates who, for some reason cannot actually take the exams. In the past things like life threatening illnesses, death of a parent, national disasters, etc might result in a predicted exam grade replacing an actual exam grade. This is then combined with internal assessment and other completed portions of the courses/diploma and then diploma grades are finalized.</p>