Too many out of state students at state universities?

Parent Cafe
41

<p>Ldmom, you said (#19) that the grad rate at UT-Austin was less than 40%. Your article says that the worst 5 of 9 of the UT-System have a grad rate below 40%. </p>

<p>I showed you that UT-Austin in fact has a grad rate in the mid-70%s, and that top-10% admits had a higher grad rate than non-top-10% admits.</p>

<p>I don't really like the top 10% rule either, but you are not helping our case by mis-stating facts. You are trying to say that not only is the rule arbitrary and unfair, but it is even hurting our schools because they have to take low-quality students. That latter part does not seem to be true, at least at UT-Austin.</p>

42

<p>I find it interesting that two people from Pennsylvania have commented on the lack of diversity in that state. I lived in northern Delaware for 8 years and found that the people that I knew from southeastern Pennsylvania and other parts of the state were a very diverse group, as were those from Delaware and other neighboring states. Do you really find that the students in your state are very similar in ways that are unique compared to those in other states? Could either of you elaborate on this? I would think that the fact that Pennsylvania is such a heavily-contested state in national elections would suggest the opposite. Personally, I've lived in 7 different states and have found a whole range of different people in each place, especially at the universities. This has lead me to question the value of “geographic diversity” when referring to people from different states.</p>

43

<p>venkater,
I'm sure that you're aware of the difference between a tax-supported state university that exists to serve the people of that state and a private university that doesn't receive any funding from the state in which it is located. While any selective state university will not be able to accommodate everyone within the state who desires to attend, it does have an obligation to give preference to residents when awarding admittance. </p>

<p>barrons,
If the state universities are using tuition from out-of-state students to subsidize residents, how are they able to compete with private institutions? If you compare OOS tuition at the top publics to that at comparable privates, it is generally considerably less, even though their endowments are frequently smaller.</p>

44

<p>logos: I live in PA I mentioned that we think it's a good thing that PSU has 25% of its students from OOS plus a healthy population of internationals. But, you're right, there is quite a bit of diversity within the state as well. We have two big cities and lots of small towns in between. Plus we have a fair share of people who were not originally from PA. So, yes, you can find diversity at big state school. My son attended a very competitive high school in eastern PA - many of the well-to-do students look down at going to our state U ("13th grade") even though it's in the top 50. It seems it's much "cooler" to go out of state. I think that's true in most east coast states.</p>

45

<p>I think I clarified my post adequately dt. Maybe we crossed posts. See 22 and 36 where I distinguish between the UT system and one specific campus. Also, the article implies that for the period examined, all UT institutions were below the nat'l average of 52%. (Again, I find that hard to believe for UT-Austin.)</p>

<p>The facts are this. At my daughter's high performing high school, NM Commended kids with many AP credits were capped and not granted Fall admissions at UT-Austin. So they opted to go private or out of state. However, kids from low-performing schools here in Houston were admitted to UT Austin with no APs, and low GPAs, low SAT scores. How does this NOT hurt UT Austin or the UT system? For at least 76%! of the freshmen admitted to UT-Austin, admissions counselors only looked at ONE number, RANK. They were NOT allowed to consider the essay or if perhaps the applicant did not have adequate writing/communication skills; they were NOT allowed consider if the SAT scores were weak to determine if perhaps the applicant needed remedial math work or if that student would not do well at UT; they were not allowed to look at recommendations to see if the applicant would be a good fit for the school. In essence, these admissions counselors were not allowed to do their job. Every other school in this nation has the ability and the right to put together a meaningful freshman classes on many measurements of merit. Texas does not; and it won't be without consequence.</p>

<p>btw...you wouldn't happen to be a UT student/alum would you? JK :-)</p>

46

<p>And for the record, I don't necessarily oppose the law...but I think it needs severe modification. All parts of an application should be considered and if a top ten percent candidate is weak, UT, for example, should have the right to grant conditional acceptances that force a student to make up deficiencies at CC or at a certain UT campus...with a guaranteed admission to the flagship once the deficiencies are cleared. And there should be a cap on the number of auto-admits at each school.</p>

47

<p>toneranger,
I just understood your earlier post to suggest that PSU is diverse because of that 25% OOS population, which I found surprising. I would agree that international students generally add significant diversity.</p>

48

<p>They compete by paying profs less, they don't have to pay for buildings as the state pays for that (or used to anyway), they have some big classes, fewer frills, less financial aid, strong fundraising (endowments may not be as large but about half of the top annual fundraisers are publics), going like heck after research money, and other efficiencies.</p>

<p>Top institutions in total fundraising<br>
Stanford University $603,585,914
University of Wisconsin at Madison $595,215,891
Harvard University $589,861,000
University of Pennsylvania $394,249,685
Cornell University $353,931,403
Columbia University $341,140,986
University of Southern California $331,754,481
Johns Hopkins University $323,100,408
Indiana University $301,060,946
University of California at San Francisco $292,932,382
Yale University $285,706,955
University of California at Los Angeles $281,552,472
Duke University $275,815,542
University of Minnesota $265,498,507
University of Washington $259,118,639
University of Michigan $251,353,272
New York University $247,126,717
Massachusetts Institute of Technology $206,007,428
Ohio State University $204,598,172
University of California at Berkeley $198,863,654</p>

<p>Top Institutions in Total Research-and-Development Expenditures 2004
Johns Hopkins University $1,375,014,000 (includes $700 million for operations of federal research lab off campus)
University of California at Los Angeles $772,569,000
University of Michigan $769,126,000
University of Wisconsin at Madison $763,875,000
University of California at San Francisco $728,321,000
University of Washington $713,976,000
University of California at San Diego $708,690,000
Stanford University $671,046,000
Pennsylvania State University $600,139,000
University of Pennsylvania $596,756,000
Cornell University $575,554,000
Massachusetts Institute of Technology $543,448,000
University of California at Berkeley $525,598,000
Duke University $520,871,000
Ohio State University $518,088,000
University of Minnesota $515,061,000
University of California at Davis $511,757,000
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign $506,041,000
Washington University in St. Louis $489,565,000
University of Colorado $482,992,000
University of Arizona $478,680,000
Baylor College of Medicine $476,075,000
Columbia University $468,484,000
University of Pittsburgh $461,693,000
Texas A&M University $456,809,000
Harvard University $454,495,000
University of Florida $447,146,000
University of Southern California $426,665,000
Yale University $422,828,000
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill $416,727,000
Georgia Institute of Technology $410,799,000
Indiana University $384,168,000
Purdue University $365,779,000
Northwestern University $358,947,000</p>

49

<p>As an aside - at least one private university has a mandate to accept students from their home state - Duke University in North Carolina. My D was surprised at how many students were from North Carolina - almost every student she met was from North Carolina, the majority of them from Durham or Chapel Hill. Our student tour guide stated in response to our question that yes, Duke had a mandate in their charter to accept a certain percentage of students from North Carolina. The admissions office confirmed this policy, but would not reveal the percentage which appears to be between 15 to 20%.</p>

<p>I'd be curious if other private four year institutions in other states have a similar policy.</p>

50

<p>Westcoastmom: I believe that percentage is 13%. In some years, they may end up with more NC students than that, but the mandate, I'm pretty sure, is 13%. I'm not sure why they'd be secretive about it. I think I've seen it written on their website or in materials from them. In fact, the Class of 2010 profile is up right now, and it says 14% are from NC.</p>

51

<p>I've lived in five states (including PA) and Chester, Montgomery, Delaware and Lehigh counties here in PA, oh and one summer in Harrisburg. Some of my best friends are from Nothwestern PA. With that limited perspective, no, I haven't seen a lot of diversity at the State Colleges I've visited. Diversity-wise are we talking about varied life experiences, economic situations or racial diversity?? If we're talking life experiences, I saw more differences from Northern Delaware and Southern Delaware (I lived my first 9 years in New Castle county and the next 11 in Kent and Sussex) then I have seen here in PA. Maybe I just don't see it. Maybe it's that the counties that we've lived in are very similar. We've moved a lot, traveled a lot and have family all over the United States but many people that we meet have maybe moved once and still have family concentrated in one area. I guess when I think of diversity I'm thinking of different races of people, people from different economic backgrounds, people that have different opinions on issues - sort of like CC. My daughters (small, private, Christian) college has 92% of the students from oos and many international students. Their one commonality is their religon but I don't think you could get more diversity then what she has.</p>

52

<p>barrons,
If the state pays for the buildings, wouldn't that be considered subsidizing those who use them? Do you have any specifics on the differences in pay for professors between comparable public and private schools?</p>

53

<p>


</p>

<p>I guess suggesting that they fix the high schools so that the top kids from every Texas high school were prepared for UT is too much to ask? </p>

<p>I'm not a great fan of the Top 10% program or of our two pre-eminent state schools (way larger than I like). It does have the effect of sending droves of high quality Texas students that are 80-90% to some very good colleges and uni's nationwide. Texas is well represented everywhere. Remember also that a significant portion of the TOP 10% don't use it, and some % of those kids go OOS, too. </p>

<p>Lots of kids heading out. Interesting to think about the longterm effects.</p>

54

<p>kathiep,
I agree with you that there are many different types of diversity and that all of the elements that you mention are valuable. I'm just surprised that you wouldn't find that kind of diversity at the state universities in Pennsylvania, apart from the students from other states.</p>

55

<p>Thank you garland...I'm going to try the quote thing now...don't make fun of me if I mess it up! :-)</p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess suggesting that they fix the high schools so that the top kids from every Texas high school were prepared for UT is too much to ask?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>With this sentiment I agree completely. And I believe it was an Arizona State (?) administrator who chuckled at our top ten percent law and said (paraphrasing) 'What's bad for Texas is good for us' referring to the increase in the number of applications from highly qualified Texans. </p>

<p>It can't be good to be on the export side of this particular trade relationship.</p>

56

<p>The ivy schools pay full professors around $150-$200K. Top 10 publics would pay $100-$130 or so. The Chronicle of Higher Ed has the #s but you have to be a subscriber to see them. There's a pretty big gap today but luckily not everyone wants to go teach at an Ivy.</p>

<p>Yes paying for buildings is a subsidy but it's usually in a different budget (state capital budget) and not included in the annual amount. It can vary a lot from year to year depending on how the state is doing.</p>

<p>Average salaries, in thousands, 2004-5</p>

<p>Highest-paid full professors, all private institutions
Rockefeller U. $169.2<br>
Harvard U. $163.2
Princeton U. $151.1
Stanford U. $148.5
U. of Chicago $148.4
California Institute of Technology $145.7
Yale U. $145.6
U. of Pennsylvania $143.4
Columbia U. $140.4
New York U. $138.1 </p>

<p>Highest-paid full professors, all public institutions
U. of California at Los Angeles $123.3
U. of California at Berkeley $121.8
New Jersey Institute of Technology $121.5
U. of Maryland at Baltimore $120.5
U. of Michigan at Ann Arbor $120.2
Georgia Institute of Technology $119.0
U. of Virginia $118.1
Rutgers U. at Newark $116.4
State U. of New York Health Science Center at Brooklyn $115.5
U. of California at San Diego $113.8</p>

57

<p>logos, we are in a thread about state schools. i wasnt talking about private schools. a state university will take OOS applicants who are of a higher calibur over instate applicants who are not as strong. it is unfair to better applicants to be denied admission because they either live or do not live in the state.</p>

<p>also, think it greatly hurts a school to be 90+% in state (public and private). it lessens diversity which is very important (to me atleast when looking at college). it turns me off from a school if almost all the students are from the state because it may turn the school into a commuter school where students either live at home, or go home very frequently, hurting campus life for students who do not live nearby.</p>

58

<p>curmudgeon:</p>

<p>Having all high schools turn out kids of equal accomplishment is a nice sentiment, but a bit utopian, I'm afraid. I've known 8th graders who wrote papers like the one from my next door neighbor comparing Descartes and Plato, with especial emphasis on the similarities and differences between Descartes and the sophists Socrates and Plato love so much to deride. They did this because their homes are full of books, their parents often have advanced degrees, and a rich intellectual life is part and parcel of their existence.</p>

<p>Compare that to the kid with parents who barely finished grade school, have no books in the house, and an intellectual life that consists of soap operas and reality TV. The schools can only do so much, my friend.</p>

59

<p>barrons: You said, in part, " . . . they don't have to pay for buildings as the state pays for that . . "</p>

<p>And do you know how a state (at least here in NC) pays for new construction and renovation on the public university campuses? Can you say, Bond Referendum? The taxpayers vote for these, and the money comes from the resident taxpayers. Further, it doesn't really matter what part of the state budget funds the buildings. It's all part of the state budget, which is funded by the taxpayers.</p>

<p>We here in NC know how very valuable a top-notch public university system is to our state, and we don't mind paying high taxes to support that. However, to suggest that it is the (18%) out-of-state student tuition that somehow supports us and allows for our relatively low in-state tuition, is ludicrous (and somewhat offensive), at best.</p>

60

<p>Thanks for the info, barrons. Do you know how Notre Dame or Carnegie Mellon compare to UVA, UNC-CH, or UMich in professor salaries?</p>

<p>vankater,
I disagree with you for the reasons that I've already expressed in this thread. Private schools can admit whomever they wish. Public universities have an obligation to serve the people of their states, and it is often a constitutionally-mandated responsiblity. I've not heard of any selective state universities that could be called commuter schools, though perhaps this is more the case in areas with a very high cost of living.</p>