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Her one passion has been academic excellence. Was she admitted to the school of her choice? No. She only got into her two 'safeties,' competitive schools, both of which made a big deal about encouraging her to attend.
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<p>Without knowing the school of her choice, there is no way to know whether or not it was a reasonable expectation or not. Therefore, no way to know whether the "system" was fair or not.</p>
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<p>Horsepuckey. Total horsepuckey. I'll need a few moments to keep my hands from shaking. LOL.</p>
<p>Living in the reflective glory of your light, Narcissus , I await the changes your very breath shall bring. Can'st thou give us a token of the dreams you will unfold upon us? The wonders that await us ? Just a sip from your goblet, a thread from your hem. Please do us that honor, miserable wretches that we are.</p>
<p>Please, don't patronize me with ad hominems.</p>
<p>mudge:</p>
<p>teehee, love it!</p>
<p>Besides, these aren't the only people who get in. But it's certainly a factor for some, and something that schools do look for. Ultimately, HYPS etc... are looking for is those who will be truly leaders, be it in politics, on the field, in whatever academic field etc... They do want great thinkers, and do not doubt for a minute that if they knew how to accurately predict who would be a great thinker and shape the course of knowledge (not that I want to sound too hegelian), they would take advantage of this information and select such students in a heartbeat!</p>
<p>lki, but how can I a mere plebian mortal, be a patron to you? It would be your largesse that we depend on for our very being. We lie awake frightened as school children about you leaving for your part-time job at Walmart. </p>
<p>And as to your argument about their astuteness in the selection process, I could always submit you as some evidence to the contrary.JK.</p>
<p>lki, you are about to enter some of the more formative years of your life. Try to listen with some humility. Learning will go a lot easier for you. This is the parents' board . Most of us have accomplished something we consider worthwhile, and we know what it takes to do so. Something you still have left to learn.</p>
<p>I will respond to the original poster and say that I don't think schools- outside of those public schools which are primarily going by numbers- SAT scores and GPA -and if you can add rushing yards then more power to you- are looking for well rounded students
I think they appear to be looking for a well rounded class but that is very different
They are looking for students who didn' tnecessarily peak in high school, students who (sorry) have a passion, whether it be for rock climbing, for writing prose or learning about medieval weaponry.</p>
<p>They aren't necessarily looking for one trick ponies
If a student excels in school, but doesn't seem to have many other interests if any- that is not going to be as interesting as a student who does well in school but also is a top soccer player or sings in a band.</p>
<p>I think it can be very subjective and hard to understand
My daughter for instance has had a blessed school career- from getting a scholarship to attend private schools K-12 which were extremely difficult to get into even if you could pay full price- to being admitted to all her colleges. She wasn't the brightest student in the school or even the hardest working. BUt she is a good writer and I think she had very good recommendations and she interviews well.
Another student who had difficulty with the essay prompts or had an interviewer they didn't click with, might have been a better student- sometimes it is really a toss up why one student gets admitted and one doesn't especially when you are talking competitive schools</p>
<p>Carmudgeon, I like your wit. But please don't misread me as advocating Nietzschean supermenschen (I sound a bit like Raskolnikov, don't I?). I've only said there is a somewhat quantifiable quality beyond simply passion or grades that plays a role. It's not a binary between being a genius or not.</p>
<p>Basically, Mine IS an icky argument.
It's nasty and mean and goes against all our feelings of fairness, meritocracy and egalitarianism. For the longest time, I too subscribed to the crapshoot theory. I only recant because I cannot reconcile a belief in randomness in the clearly repeated pattern I see. For a certain set of people not united by athletic talent, legacy, URM, wealth, geography etc... to all get in at most of these places suggests something else is at play.</p>
<p>Was there a normative element to what I wrote? Yes. Maybe what I wrote smacked of triumphalism. There are many reasons, though I don't want to launch into a dissertation on oedipal complexes (baloney...), socially reified pressuers etc... But it doesn't negate my substantive claims.</p>
<p>hey I took something really strong for my migraine so can we stick to two syllable words please?
Thanks
:)</p>
<p>"D was and is academician with high SATs and SAT II's, salutatorian - outside interests were academically based - Academic Challenge captain 4 years, took first overall honors division at Regional Decathlon, won State Citizen Bee 2 years in a row, 2ms in state Soc. Studiues UIL, and was rejected from 1st choice school - ivy."</p>
<p>I respect your D's achievements, which are impressive. At the same time, however, I am not surprised that she was rejected by an Ivy.</p>
<p>Her wonderful achievements are the norm for Ivy applicants. Thus, the Ivy was a reach for her -- and for virtually all students who apply to Ivies, no matter how outstanding they are. The Ivies have the luxury of picking and choosing from a pool of almost uniformly outstanding students in order to create a class that is diverse in all meanings of the word from interests to politics, region, countries, ECs, etc.</p>
<p>To the OP: Your D, too, sounds very impressive. However, without some kind of very strong ECs, outstanding students like her tend to end up at state universities (including those that are among the country's best universities) because such universities are more stats driven than are places like Ivies.</p>
<p>Other colleges that choose students mainly based on gpa, SAT, class rank are Cooper Union and CalTech.</p>
<p>As for your idea that some students may do ECs just to get into Ivies and then drop the ECs once there, that actually isn't true. </p>
<p>I went to an Ivy, attended for grad school a second tier college, and have taught at second and third tier state universities. At my Ivy, there were hundreds of student-led organizations doing everyting from running a daily newspaper (without getting paid or having a journalism major) to having a myriad of dance troupes, more than 60 student theater performances a year (despite not having a theater major) to doing major community service throughout the area.</p>
<p>I honestly did not know anyone in college who simply studied. After college, virtually everyone I know still is very involved in activities that are unrelated to their jobs. This includes doing community service -- major leadership-- for the sheer fun of it and to be of service to the community.</p>
<p>It is possible for students to do "just" community service as their EC in h.s. If a student takes major leadership in such service -- creates projects, raises funds on their own, identifies problems and lobbies to change them, does longterm involvment that makes a difference in an organization or individual -- that can be something that is very impressive to adcoms.</p>
<p>It is important to take some kind of leadership role even if formal positions aren't available. Creating and organizing a fund raising or service project are examples of taking leadership.</p>
<p>If a student only stuffs envelopes or answers the phone for an organization, that is not considered that impressive even if the service has been done for years. Top colleges are interested in students who may start with that kind of opportunity, but when they are answering the phone or stuffing envelopes -- identify needs that are unfilled -- and then work to create ways of meeting those needs.</p>
<p>Of course, for these kind of actions to influence adcoms' decisions, the students need to write about these on their essays, talk about them in interviews and/or send in a supplementary recommendation from a person at the organization who can detail the student's impact.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, however, your D's being the school's only NM scholar was a big deal. Is there a chance that the school assumed that since she had gotten that honor and was #1 in the class, she had gotten a significant amount of recognition and $, so that's why others were chosen for the scholarships that were distributed on awards night?</p>
<p>I know that depending on where your D applied, she could have gotten full rides for her NM status.</p>
<p>Iki: you are not the first student who has tried to debunk the "crapshoot" theory. Another, from MIT, on another thread, expressed a similar idea, that being that there are certain students for whom an acceptance at HYPSM seems predictable. I have a close friend who's daughter goes to Harvard, and during the admissions process a couple of years ago, I (perhaps ignorantly), felt certain she would get in. She had spectacular accomplishments, achieved national recognition in two areas, and has that spark of brilliance that came through in all her endeavors. After she was accepted by H., it seemed to confirm in my mind the logic and fairness of the process. But since that time, I've also seen the other side: eg. a boy who was one of the top three debaters in the country, a friend of my son's, an absolutely brilliant mind, top student, etc, etc., did not get in. So it goes....So, my conclusion is that from the inside of the world you're now entering, you will be among some spectacularly accomplished people, and their acceptance (and multiple acceptances )into that world seems only logical. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a whole other group of equally spectacularly accomplished people who weren't so furtunate...and that, my dear, is why the "crapshoot" notion can exist side by side with the notion that HYPSM do make some well thought out decisions about whom they accept.</p>
<p>but that doesn't mean that there isn't a whole other group of equally spectacularly accomplished people who weren't so furtunate...and that,</p>
<p>that means that these students will be going somewhere else. It may be to an honors program at a local university that is giving them a free ride- it may be to a top liberal arts college or it may be to a school that is strong AND offers merit aid.
Just because you are admitted to Harvard doesn't mean you have the money to pay for it. They give need based aid. But for students whose parents aren't ready to spend full price *even for * Harvard- merit aid can look pretty attractive</p>
<p>Many students on these boards are attending what originally was their second choice, third choice or even the only school that gave them money or were accepted to.
But for the most part, the ones who have returned to tell us how they are doing are pretty happy with the way things worked out.</p>
<p>Donemom,</p>
<p>Very fair and balanced approach!</p>
<p>When touring colleges, I remarked to my D that the only difference between the "elite" school students and the state flagship U students was not intelligence, it was all the ECs that the elite school students were involved in. It seems like every one of them had a long list of outside activities: social chairperson of sorority, director of school play, started political action club, etc., etc., etc. Will that help them get into grad or professional school? I doubt it. Will that make them more successful in life? Not sure. Will Iki accomplish more than the OP's daughter? Wouldn't bet the farm on that one either.</p>
<p>My S is seriously lopsided. ECs are mostly academic. I suppose his enthusiasm for math made up for lack of other kinds of ECs.</p>
<p>I don't think it's the long list of ECs that makes the difference. Rather, I think it's the "passion" for an activity and how that is communicated by the application as a whole.</p>
<p>"I remarked to my D that the only difference between the "elite" school students and the state flagship U students was not intelligence, it was all the ECs that the elite school students were involved in. It seems like every one of them had a long list of outside activities: social chairperson of sorority, director of school play, started political action club, etc., etc., etc. Will that help them get into grad or professional school? I doubt it. Will that make them more successful in life? "</p>
<p>Actually being involved in ECs can help big time with getting into grad and professional school. Even medical school admissions committees want students who show concern for others and involvement in their communities.</p>
<p>The experience that students get from starting and leading organizations also transfers to whatever fields that they end up in.</p>
<p>Does that mean that they will be more successful than will students who don't do such things? It matters how one defines success.</p>
<p>What's probably true, however, is that students who enjoy being deeply involved in ECs in high school are probably going to grow into adults who behave in similar ways.</p>
<p>One of the problems with trying to figure out why someone didn't get into a specific school when their grades and test scores were "near perfect" is that we don't see the application as a whole. I have seen kids tell me that they wrote "great essays"--I've read them and they were awful! Putting together a thoughtful, focused application (including essays that "sing") is an important part of the application process, especially to an Ivy-type school.</p>
<p>Where I live, the only folks that I know of going to HYS recently are not "well-rounded" - simply athletes. At H., two rowers and a football player (to be fair, the two non-athletes who did get accepted several years ago turned them down for Brigham Young). At Yale, a female runner. At Stanford, football player, baseball player, a couple of swimmers, and a diver.</p>
<p>If you took the names off the schools, and just guessed who they were from the admissions, you'd guess big athletic u.'s</p>