<p>
</p>
<p>On the other hand, students may be considering both types of schools, so they would have to compare them when making application lists and matriculation decisions.</p>
<p>Of course, any given student’s “top 10” (or top whatever) schools would not necessarily be the same as some other student’s top schools. Nor would any given student’s top schools necessarily be based on the usual prestige rankings.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Of course, even the LAC advocates do not seem to recognize the LAC-like characteristics of regional schools. For example, nearly all classes at San Jose State are limited to 35 or fewer students. Although San Jose State has only 25% liberal arts majors, that is still more liberal arts majors than most LACs have.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think JHU has more of a claim of being in the top 10 than schools like Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, and (perhaps) Duke do. If you look at research, Nobel laureate alumni, etc. JHU blows these other schools out of the water. So again, as warblesrule put in his post #2, it all depends at what criteria you’re looking at.</p>
<p>
Sam, Duke is no more or no less pre-professional than Northwestern or any other peer private schools. Let me use data to back up my claim.</p>
<p>ABA Top Law School Applicant Feeders
<a href=“http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/pdfs/top-240-feeder-schools.pdf[/url]”>http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/pdfs/top-240-feeder-schools.pdf</a>
Duke: 292
Northwestern: 280</p>
<p>AAMC Top Med School Applicant Feeders
<a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/321456/data/2012factstable2-6.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/321456/data/2012factstable2-6.pdf</a>
Duke: 360
Northwestern: 279</p>
<p>Duke and NU have nearly an identical number of law school applicants but Duke is far better represented at the top law schools. Duke does have about ~30% more med school applicants than NU annually but Duke is represented proportially in greater numbers at the top 10-15 medical schools.</p>
<p>For whatever reason, NU is not quite in the same league as Duke with regards to placement in professional schools. Since the students are supposedly of equal academic caliber and socioeconomic makeup, I can only conclude that a Duke degree is held in greater esteem by elite professional programs.</p>
<p>
Beyphy, your alma mater’s big brother blows most of the “Top 10” out of the water if that’s the criteria. ;)</p>
<p>[Top</a> universities by reputation 2013 - Times Higher Education](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013/reputation-ranking]Top”>World Reputation Rankings 2013 | Times Higher Education (THE))</p>
<p>Reputation Score > 20.0</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard University United States<br></li>
<li>Massachusetts Institute of Technology United States<br></li>
<li>University of California, Berkeley United States<br></li>
<li>Stanford University United States<br></li>
<li>Princeton University United States<br></li>
<li>University of California, Los Angeles United States<br></li>
<li>Yale University United States<br></li>
<li>California Institute of Technology United States<br></li>
<li>University of Michigan United States<br></li>
<li>Columbia University United States<br></li>
<li>University of Chicago United States</li>
</ol>
<p>[Academic</a> Ranking of World Universities - 2012| Top 500 universities | Shanghai Ranking - 2012 | World University Ranking - 2012](<a href=“http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2012.html]Academic”>http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2012.html)</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard University</li>
<li>Stanford University</li>
<li>Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)</li>
<li>University of California, Berkeley<br></li>
<li>California Institute of Technology<br></li>
<li>Princeton University </li>
<li>Columbia University</li>
<li>University of Chicago</li>
<li>Yale University</li>
<li>University of California, Los Angeles</li>
</ol>
<p>Between these two international rankings, there is a top ten overlap between Harvard, MIT, CalTech, Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, and Chicago.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>True, but JHU > Berkeley in the number of living billionaires that it has essentially backing it financially, and in med. schools of course ;)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I shall call them the Privates Plus (Berkeley and UCLA.)</p>
<p>
No, you cannot conclude that. You have not seen the GPA/LSAT scores of those applicants. Furthermore, Duke has higher grade inflation. According to gradeinflation.com, the difference is 3.40 vs 3.44 in 2007. That doesn’t sound like much but note that the number for NU includes those in specialty schools that have more grade inflation (3.5+). The average GPA for college of arts&sci, where most prelaws are, is less than that (last I saw the actual data by school from Daily Northwestern, I remember it was 3.25 for arts & sci and 3.21 for engineering while specialty schools have something like 3.5+). Now, 3.25 vs 3.44 is quite a difference! While some specialty schools students can be law school applicants, their majors are usually viewed less favorably by elite law schools; this got nothing to do with Duke vs Northwestern, more like english/poli sc/history vs communication/education/journalism majors.</p>
<p>Perhaps Duke is just an easier school. 
Nothing wrong with that and in fact, I wish they make NU a bit easier. They should make the orgo average as a B like other peers, instead of B-/C+. The President mentioned a plan to decrease the number of courses for requirement (48 for engineering and 45 for others). I hope the plan is still alive.</p>
<p>Yes, Sam, we’ve all heard from you numerous times how terribly difficult and rigorous Mildcat Organic Chemistry is… :rolleyes:</p>
<p>SamLee:</p>
<p>We actually do have LSAT and GPA means for schools, as demonstrated by LSAC:</p>
<p><a href=“https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agfr5qu6TB3AdF9pZjZpbHJzdXM4VmxEWDNSbUNtZ1E#gid=0[/url]”>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agfr5qu6TB3AdF9pZjZpbHJzdXM4VmxEWDNSbUNtZ1E#gid=0</a></p>
<p>NU GPAs (3.47) and Duke GPAs (3.46) are actually very similar. There is a two point disparity in LSAT (a difference from 162 - 85th percentile at NU to 164 - 90th percentile at Duke), which is significant in the LSAT-hungry world of law school admissions. </p>
<p>If there are more high scoring LSAT takers at Duke than NU (which appears to be the case) that would explain the alternate outcomes in terms of law school admissions.</p>
<p>The data indicates that Duke has more high scoring applicants - NOT that Duke applicants are in “higher esteem” as goldenboy suggests. Law Schools love high GPAs and high LSATs. They care comparatively little about the rest (rep of undergrad, etc.).</p>
<p>Cue, if the two schools are admitting students of roughly equal quality but Duke students end up having higher MCAT, LSAT, and GMAT scores after undergrad, then doesn’t that say something about difference between the quality and rigor of the education received at both institutions? This is especially after controlling for the applicant size and GPAs.</p>
<p>goldenboy,</p>
<p>I took GMAT and GRE before and there’s absolutely nothing there that’s related to your college courses. You just need time to practice. Perhaps Duke students just have more time at their hands to prep for those tests; after all, the normal load is only 4 courses per semester there while at NU, it’s 4 courses per <em>quarter</em>. I am sure when the President came up with a plan to reduce the number of courses, he did some benchmarking with other peers.</p>
<p>Another thing is we don’t know who made up those applicants. The specialty schools give out As like candies while the arts and sciences school isn’t like that. A 3.47 from any specialty school is actually below average and isn’t really the same as getting a 3.47 as a poli sci major. That Daily Northwestern article was written because of easy As at schools like Medill; when the average GPA isn’t uniform across the 6 schools, it’s difficult to analyze Northwestern, let along comparing it with others.</p>
<p>Goldenboy:</p>
<p>If students of similar caliber (i.e. similar SATs, grades, etc.) perform disparately on a grad test (LSAT, MCAT, etc.), that, to me, doesn’t indicate a difference in college preparation. Rather, that indicates a difference in approach to studying for the test, or a varying level of concern about the test itself. </p>
<p>Duke students may, in comparison to NU students, simply study harder for the grad tests, and take them more seriously. Perhaps if the curriculum at Duke is “easier,” students may simply have more time to devote to the test, or are more driven to get into a top law/med etc. school. </p>
<p>I think disparate performance speaks less to abilities, and more to - amongst a comparable student body - the culture of the school and its students. This could, similarly, be the case why you see more high-achieving Williams grads on Wall St., as opposed to Swarthmore grads.</p>
<p>(Put another way, going to a “top” med/grad school may simply be more important to Duke grads than NU grads.)</p>
<p><a href=“Put%20another%20way,%20going%20to%20a%20%22top%22%20med/grad%20school%20may%20simply%20be%20more%20important%20to%20Duke%20grads%20than%20NU%20grads.”>quote=Cue7</a>
[/quote]
This simply makes no sense at the Professional School level Cue7. Reputation and prestige trump all when it comes to law school and business school since the elite institutions have a tangible and measurable advantage when it comes to job placement over inferior programs.</p>
<p>Simply put, it can be justifiable to pick Wisconsin over Harvard at the undergraduate level depending one’s career goals and fields of study (engineering perhaps). Choosing Wisconsin Law/Business/Medicine over Harvard Law/Business/Medicine just because the former is “closer to home” or “cheaper” or “a better fit” is simply unacceptable. </p>
<p>Saying that they are willing to settle for less is an insult to the Northwestern student body and an indictment against the notion of NU being an “elite school” then.</p>
<p>Goldenboy:</p>
<p>I’m just saying that the cultures/values of different schools may be, well different. I don’t think it’s a question of “settling,” I think it’s a question of expectations. If the pressure and culture at Duke places more emphasis on top grad schools, that may play a factor in more students going on to those top grad schools. </p>
<p>It could be the case that more higher performing students at Duke aspire to law school, whereas fewer NU students do. </p>
<p>Either way, I’m not sure why NU’s avg. LSAT is lower than Duke’s, but I highly doubt it’s because one institution offers more than the other. Rather, the culture and value of the school may be different.</p>
<p>I’d imagine the same holds, say, for a comparison of Swarthmore to Williams. This doesn’t take away anything from either of these schools.</p>
<p>@kwu wow Yale does terribly on those haha</p>