Top 8 Reasons Not to Go to Berkeley

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
141

<p>Now, let me make things clear. I fundamentally do NOT agree with College Senior, not because his complaints are not factual, but because I find them unbalanced. Yes, Berkeley has a number of severe problems. Yes, Berkeley has issues with social coherence, with crime, with declining reputation, with all that.</p>

<p>On the other hand, Berkeley is still clearly the best public undergrad school in the state, and probably in the whole country west of Virginia. There is no comparison between Berkeley and a lesser UC or a CalState. If Berkeley has problems (and it certainly does), those other schools are even worse. You want to talk about bad students? Other public schools in California REALLY have a lot of bad students. You want to talk about a lack of activities? Other public schools in California REALLY suffer from a lack of activities. </p>

<p>So I stand by what I said before - Berkeley really is the best school for a lot of people who just aren't good enough to get into anywhere better, or can't afford it. So there's little point in telling those people how bad Berkeley is, as where else are they going to go? I agree that at an undergrad level, I find it difficult to recommend Berkeley over HYPSMC or other such high-level schools unless cost is a factor. But to make a comparison between, say, Berkeley and UCDavis or UCSC, there is no comparison to be made.</p>

142

<p>"best public undergrad school in the state, and probably in the whole country west of Virginia."</p>

<p>William and Mary, Cal Poly SLO are both good public schools that emphasize undergraduate education. These two schools probably offer a better undergrad experience than berkeley.</p>

143

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>Agreed with all points but that Berkeley is the best UC. You know where I stand on that one. ;)</p>

144

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>You wrote:</p>

<p>"Berkeley really is the best school for a lot of people who just aren't good enough to get into anywhere better, or can't afford it."</p>

<p>Just for the record, let's take a student who is in the UC Berkeley College of Engineering. Other than CalTech or MIT, what school would a person who is admitted to the UC Berkeley College of Engineering have a hard time getting into? Name a few schools other than Caltech or MIT that have equal or better engineering programs than UC Berkeley. Also, could the students from the schools that you name be able to get into UC Berkeley's School of Engineering and survive?</p>

145

<p>
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I find it difficult to recommend Berkeley over HYPSMC or other such high-level schools unless cost is a factor.

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<p>I find it hard to recommend most schools over HYPSMC. I mean, c'mon. That's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. Let's not kid ourselves here: There are plenty of brilliant people at Cal and other top 25 schools.</p>

<p>And I bet most top 25th percentile Cal students could get into most Ivies, but still... Harvard and Yale are Harvard and Yale.</p>

146

<p>
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Just for the record, let's take a student who is in the UC Berkeley College of Engineering. Other than CalTech or MIT, what school would a person who is admitted to the UC Berkeley College of Engineering have a hard time getting into

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<p>If we're not restricting ourselves to engineering, then HYPS are almost certainly harder to get into than Berkeley engineering. So are Oxford and Cambridge (in the UK). </p>

<p>Let's talk specifically about Harvard. The majority of students in the Berkeley CoE would have gone to Harvard if they had gotten in. Harvard wins all cross-admit battles with everyone. One might say that those engineers would have still preferred Berkeley CoE because of engineering. I find that to be unlikely. After all, Harvard wins the cross-admit battle even with MIT, and most MIT students are engineers. If the prospect of going to the very best engineering school in the world (MIT) can't entice people away from Harvard, then why would we have any reason to believe that the Berkeley CoE would be able to entice them away? That doesn't mean that EVERYBODY who gets into Harvard will go, but it does mean that given the choice between Harvard and some other school, the majority of people will choose Harvard. There isn't a school in the country where this isn't true.</p>

<p>Hence, that implicitly means that the majority of Berkeley CoE students are there because they either couldn't get into Harvard or didn't even apply because they didn't think they would be able to get in. I don't think that's particularly shameful, but it's just a simple statement of fact that, as has been said on this board, Harvard is Harvard. </p>

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Name a few schools other than Caltech or MIT that have equal or better engineering programs than UC Berkeley.

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<p>Stanford. Cambridge University (in the UK).</p>

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Also, could the students from the schools that you name be able to get into UC Berkeley's School of Engineering and survive

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<p>I think they could. For example, I am fairly certain that the average Harvard or Yale student could at least survive Berkeley engineering. Survive with top grades? Maybe not, especially if the person is liberal-arts focused. But I think he would survive. </p>

<p>I believe that the fair way to draw a comparison is to look at Berkeley engineers vs. the tech students at the other schools. Without a doubt, the absolute most brilliant people that I know are not engineers at Berkeley, not even engineers at MIT, but rather some of the physics and mathematics students at Harvard that I have met. These guys would absolutely blow the doors off of practically any engineer at Berkeley. One of those guys who had a brilliant undergrad math career at Harvard, finished his PhD in mathematics at MIT in a very short period of time (something like less than 2 years) and is considered to be a worthy future candidate for the Fields Prize (the "Nobel Prize" of mathematics).</p>

147

<p>"William and Mary, Cal Poly SLO are both good public schools that emphasize undergraduate education. These two schools probably offer a better undergrad experience than berkeley."</p>

<p>Acerockolla, as someone who has yet to attend a university, how are you possibly qualified to make that statement?</p>

148

<p>
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I find it hard to recommend most schools over HYPSMC

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<p>The key issue to me is that, when it comes to graduate school, you often times can with a straight face recommend Berkeley over those other schools. For many PhD programs, Berkeley will often times defeat those other schools in the cross-admit battle. For example, if we're talking about the PhD Chemistry program, I have no problem recommending Berkeley over all of those other programs and it would not surprise me at all to find Berkeley winning the cross-admit wars for the best chemistry doctoral students in the world. I wish I could say the same about the Berkeley undergrad program in general, or least the undergrad chemistry program specifically.</p>

149

<p>What are you going to do about it, sakky? As a berkeley alum, don't you feel obligated to do more than just talk?</p>

150

<p>I find the undergrad chemistry courses to be very impersonal, though that generalization pretty much holds true for most classes... at least upper division will be a bit better (esp. upper division engineering classes).</p>

151

<p>Regarding HYPSM over Berkeley, MIT sucks. The people are weird to put it simply. They are extremely smart, but really weird. And Princeton in my opinion is over-rated. (What is Princeton good at exactly?) The others I agree regarding their quality: Harvard sucks in certain sciences but is really good at practically everything else. Yale excels in liberal arts/social studies but sucks at science. Stanford is good at everything. Damn you, Stanford. (No, I'm not a reject, although I probably would've been if I had applied.)</p>

152

<p>Princeton has one of the best International Relations and Public Policy programs in the nation. The Woodrow Wilson School of Public Policy and International Affairs continues to earn the highest accolades. To dismiss Princeton would be a folly.</p>

153

<p>Their poli sci and history departments, not to mention East Asia programs are top-notch.</p>

154

<p>
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The key issue to me is that, when it comes to graduate school, you often times can with a straight face recommend Berkeley over those other schools.

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<p>sakky,</p>

<p>Yes, this is very true. But there are fantastic undergrad programs (Dartmouth) with very few top research PhDs. Berkeley just happens to be the opposite.</p>

<p>Now, I'm not saying we should just settle, but let's be fair: Berkeley is not alone in having either undergrad or grad be better.</p>

155

<p>
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Regarding HYPSM over Berkeley, MIT sucks. The people are weird to put it simply. They are extremely smart, but really weird.

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<p>You want to talk about weird? Why don't you talk a walk down to the computer science labs in Soda at about midnight? You're going to see some REALLY weird Berkeley computer geeks. Some of these guys haven't showered in months. Literally. </p>

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What is Princeton good at exactly

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<p>That's easy. Princeton is really really good at undergraduate education. Basically, Princeton is more LAC-ish than most LAC's are when it comes to the undergraduate experience. </p>

<p>One of the best combos I can think of is to go to Princeton for undergrad and Berkeley for your PhD. </p>

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Yale excels in liberal arts/social studies but sucks at science

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<p>Careful how you say that. Yale's science isn't as good as MIT's science, but it's still better than the hundreds of other undergrad programs out there, most of which are no-name. Let's be honest. Most schools in the country can only DREAM of having science departments that are as good as Yale's.</p>

156

<p>
[quote]
Yes, this is very true. But there are fantastic undergrad programs (Dartmouth) with very few top research PhDs. Berkeley just happens to be the opposite.</p>

<p>Now, I'm not saying we should just settle, but let's be fair: Berkeley is not alone in having either undergrad or grad be better.

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<p>Yeah, but I think in this context, we are talking about the Berkeley undergrad program. College Senior is complaining about the Berkeley undergrad program, and I agree that there is a lot to complain about (although, like I said, it's still better than the undergrad programs at most other public schools). </p>

<p>Besides, we shouldn't pick on Dartmouth too much. The truth is, Dartmouth is basically a LAC. Nobody picks on Williams College for having bad (or, more accurately, nonexistent) PhD programs. However, in the case of Berkeley, it is the undergrad program that has the most students. However, it is also the undergrad program that is probably the least well run of all of Berkeley's programs.</p>

157

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>Unfortunately that's part of the public university (or maybe UC) mission (i.e. give as many undergrad students the education as possible.) What I think has floated UCs since the dawn of time is the great PhD programs drawing good profs and good grad students.</p>

158

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<p>Maybe, but somehow internationally many people have not heard of Princeton surprisingly. I've just never heard of Princeton excelling in a certain area.</p>

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<p>By "sucky" I mean the departments are not in the top 5 or maybe top 10 of the nation. Yale is famous for the arts, not for science.</p>

159

<p>quote by Delicatess: "I've just never heard of Princeton excelling in a certain area"...</p>

<p>Then you haven't been around. As the others have said, Princeton excels in poli sci, history, Public Policy, East Asian Studies and much more. It has one of the best astrophysics programs in the country. And there is a reason it is tied for #1 along with Harvard in US News & World Report's ranking of the Best National Universities. It has the highest alumni giving rate (61%) and the students as a whole are happy, happy, happy and content with their programs, thus one of the reasons for the high alumni giving rate.</p>

160

<p>sakky, sakky, sakky:</p>

<p>Harvard is not the center of the academic universe. You need to quit drinking the Harvard Kool-aid. As far as undergrad study is concerned, in the U.S., for engineering, Harvard is not the first school that comes to mind of students for undergrad engineering study [Caltech (JPL), MIT, Stanford, UC Berkeley (Lawrence Livermore and that small operation in the desert called Los Alamos), UCLA, University of Chicago (the birthplace of the U.S. nuclear program and manager of the Argonne National Labs) and such schools run the big shows in engineering and science in the US]. For economics (The University of Chicago is the top dog). For business (well, Harvard doesn't offer a business undergrad so there's nothing to talk about there unless you want to argue that economics qualifies in this category). </p>

<p>However, if you want to take some courses like Literature and Arts, Historical Study, Science, Foreign Cultures, Quantitative Reasoning, Moral Reasoning, and Social Analysis Harvard is top tier. However, I am sure that a lot of other top tier schools could argue that they have superior programs in any of these given fields. </p>

<p>As far as Oxford and Cambridge (in the U.K.) are concerned. Who cares what they are doing in the U.K.? The sun set on the U.K. a long time ago. The U.K. is a step away from being a third world country. The universities that are most competitive with top U.S. engineering and science oriented universities are in India, Japan, Australia, and China. Sorry to burst your Anglo-centric bubble. </p>

<p>The U.S. is losing its competitive edge in the world today because we don't have enough scientists and engineers. While other countries are cranking out top scientists and engineers from their undergrad programs; we are handing out undergrad diplomas, to far too many people in Literature and Arts, Historical Study, Science, Foreign Culture, Moral Reasoning, and Social Analysis. Nice, fluffy, creampuff majors with little or no real world application in science, or engineering. That's why it is ridiculous for you to attack a school like UC Berkeley. A school that turns out many of the top engineers and scientists in the US. By this measurement, I would say that UC Berkeley is a vastly superior school to Harvard or Yale. </p>

<p>In the U.S. we don't turn out enough engineers and scientists so we have to import the talent. If it weren't for schools like UC Berkeley we would be importing almost all of our science and engineering talent. </p>

<p>And finally, if someone is a whiz in math and/or science, and wants to have a career in math or science, they are not going to turn down an opportunity to do their undergraduate study at Caltech or MIT so they can go to Harvard. That does not compute.</p>