Top colleges admissions without AP sciences?

Parents Forum
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<p>The colleges I listed in the first paragraph: Barnard (Columbia); U. of Chicago; Berkeley; NYU. At the time my d. was applying, she thought she wanted to continue with Russian and also master a 2nd slavic language, and all of the universities listed above also offer courses in multiple languages, as well as at least 4 years of Russian.</p>

<p>You can go to the IPEDS Cool database at <a href="http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/index.aspx%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/index.aspx&lt;/a> and get info about how many undergraduate degrees are awarded annually in various majors. </p>

<p>I went to web sites and counted up the number of Russian faculty & course offerings, then used other resources to find typical class size in first & 2nd year courses. </p>

<p>There are plenty of other good choices, too -- my d also insisted on an urban campus, and we had to rule out a few places where her ACT scores were just too far below the mark. </p>

<p>-
But back to the topic at hand: if I have one piece of advice in hindsight, it is to back off and let the kid make the choices. All I ever got from stressing over what my daughter was missing was anxiety and tension.... plus $500 thrown away because we decided to enroll my d. in an online university precalculus course in order to fill the math gap, and she never finished the course. (The one college that seemed to be insistent on having math at least through pre-calc ended up waitlisting her anyway). </p>

<p>The better thing that I did was insist that my d. apply to a safety where she was sure to be admitted - and we knew we could afford (in our case, UC Santa Barbara & Santa Cruz).... and not stress too much about the other colleges. </p>

<p>So I really think that is what parents need to do: make sure the kid has a decent safety included on her college list, and then let go of the process and let the kid make her own choices. </p>

<p>Your daughter should take whatever courses she wants to next year; her course selection may or may not make a difference in college admissions, but following her passions is more likely to pay off both in terms of her own personal sense of satisfaction, and in getting into a college that is right for her... even if it is not the one she thinks is her top choice. I mean... think of it this way: if a college would reject your daughter because she opts to take music courses instead of AP sciences, or she opts for AP Stats instead of Chemistry.... is that the college your daughter really wants to attend? </p>

<p>Given my own daughter's academic shortcomings, I am fairly confident that the ad coms took a very close look at her file -- and when her reach colleges accepted her, they did so because they saw something they really liked. So I also know in my heart that the colleges that waitlisted or rejected her really wouldn't have been right in any case.... jumping through some hoops to please them wouldn't have made them into better fits. </p>

<p>In other words, your daughter should follow her passions now ... and a year from now head off to a college that appreciates her for who she is.</p>

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<p>In our weak h.s., the only AP science offered was AP Chem, and I often wondered, "why that one?" Was it a quirk of available faculty, a chance for pre-med hopefuls to shine? Was it held in place by school board members eager to please the doctors' families in this small rural community? It was odd to me. </p>

<p>My S was all-around a fine student but came to understand his own preference for the Humanities courses by 11th grade. Nonetheless, he took AP Chem, just b/c he takes up challenges. And yet...he found it just beyond his level-of-joy as a student and regretted taking it, since it represented opportunity costs taken away from other passion subjects. He wished he had taken Honors Chem, instead. and left time for the Humanities, Maths, Languages that he really liked.
It was one of the weaker grades on his transcript, which I can't even remember anymore, perhaps it was A- or B+ on a card full of A's. So...does that "help" get one into an elite school?
I'll never know. He went to Amherst College, perhaps despite AP CHEM, rather than because of it! So there's another perspective.</p>

<p>My D, who was even more strongly inclined towards humanities and away from math/science, went to Oberlin with only 3 years total of science (heavens!) but many other strengths to present. When she got there, the school's distribution requirement saw to it that she made up time in Maths and Sciences so is well-rounded today. But to get into the school, she presented powerhouse skills in writing, the humanities, sounding more like your daughter. </p>

<p>I agree strongly with Calmom that by senior year, especially, it's time to let a strong Humanities student sing out with clear voice that these are her passions, and give the elites reason to accept her from those. Weak showing on APChem can't possibly be better than strong showing in several kinds of humanities classes. </p>

<p>I think an elite might only find it meaningful to take the AP class if it's accompanied by a 4 or 5 on the exam at the end of the year, anyway. (I'm late to this discussion so sorry if I just repeated that obvious point). The GC was uncomfortable when she said she'd have no science in her senior year, so thee was no Physics before college. (She did take the Honors Chem in llth grade). But she got into Oberlin, and once there, took several sciences. I'll add that her college taught those sciences beautifully, elegantly, intelligently...unlike at the h.s. </p>

<p>Which brings me to the last point: the "endgame" isn't only getting into college, it's emerging with a great education! Any deficiencies from h.s. can be revisited in college by taking courses where the teaching might be much superior, so the courses enjoyed so much more!</p>

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<p>"it is to back off and let the kid make the choices."</p>

<p>That's exactly what I'll do. But first, I'll have her read this topic ... to make an informed decision.</p>

<p>"but following her passions is more likely to pay off both in terms of her own personal sense of satisfaction, and in **getting into a college that is right for her**"</p>

<p>That's a good point. In ideal world it would work ... ideally. :-) But in real life (with that crazy boom we have now, ridiculous college prices and unfavorable finaid situation (with the middle class at disadvantage)) things are a bit more complicated. Like, of course, she will have her safeties ... which, btw, most likely might be UCSC or UCSB. The problem is - she can bring herself to like it ... only so much. It can be never even closely comparable of getting into any some other places which might be real fit, but much more selective.</p>

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<p>My daughter only took 3 years of science, none of which were AP (and her high school offers all AP sciences); she took AP everything else. Out of the 3 top 10 LACs to which she applied, she was accepted at one and waitlisted at two. Given her other stats, I think this was something that may have "red-flagged" her.</p>

<p>I don't really regret her not taking AP science. Science really wasn't daughter's thing, and it was worth it not to have her stressing over a subject that didn't interest her.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't worry about the "four years of math" thing. Your daughter has already completed BC Calculus. That's really as far as kids are expected to go (although for a math-oriented kid, going further would certainly demonstrate an interest in the subject).</p>

<p>My daughter, whom I mentioned above (the one who only took AP Environmental Science), also had no math her senior year, after completing BC Calculus as a junior. She had the option of taking either AP Statistics or multivariable calculus, but she chose not to take either of them because she wanted to use that slot in her schedule to take an AP course in a different subject instead. (She's in a full IB program, so open slots in her schedule are a rarity.) Her counselor didn't think this was a problem, and the counselor turned out to be right. She got into Cornell Early Decision.</p>

<p>By the way, since your daughter is taking AP U.S. History, has she registered to take the SAT Subject Test in U.S. History in May or June? She should. The test is very similar to the multiple choice portion of the AP test; kids who do well on one of those tests usually do well on the other. No extra studying is necessary.</p>

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<p>What I'm also conserned about with her having no math senior year is the kind of "brain stagnation" when after a year of not doing any math she wouldn't be able to come back to it if she wants to or needs to do so in college. I think math needs constant practicing no less than music does.</p>

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<p>Actually, I'm a bit concerned about the "stagnation" thing, too. My daughter will need to take both math and Spanish her first year in college after not having studied either of those two subjects in 12th grade. She recognizes the problem and plans to do some review work over the summer.</p>

<p>In an ideal world, this wouldn't have happened. But there are a lot of constraints on students' schedules. In order for my daughter to do what she wanted to do in her senior year, which was to take AP Economics on top of her IB courses and to stay in the instrumental music program, she had to plan a schedule for her senior year without math or Spanish. In the end, the opportunity to take the courses that she wanted to take was more important to her than the possible disadvantages of resuming study of math and Spanish after a year's gap.</p>

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<p>One thing that strikes me in all these posts (the initial one and the responses) is that people could well be coming from high schools all over the country and I wonder if different schools/regions are treated differently by admissions offices. We're always hearing that ad. offices want to see students aiming for the most selective colleges have challenged themselves by taking the hardest schedule available and they usually expect to see 4 years math, lab science, foreign language, etc. </p>

<p>In other words, I wonder how predictive the experience of a student from California or Minnesota or Florida is for one from New Jersey? Is it also college specific (college A is more wholistic looking for students who are lopsided/accomplished, college B has so many applicants it can afford to strictly interpret their recommended course of study)? </p>

<p>It all points out the problems in trying to please someone else. If you want a specific college, then I suppose you'd better read and follow what they suggest. This can also be a turning point, where families figure out the needs of the student are paramount and that might mean adding other schools to the list.</p>

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<p>Myau stated:</p>

<p>"Yes, that's the point. It's also humanely impossible to have any more intense workload and crazy schedule than she has right now. Actually, it's impossible to have such a schedule as it is now for anybody, anytime. To survive her current school workload she would (reasonably) have to quit music and all her music-related EC activities ... but she doesn't want to. </p>

<p>At her school, AP USH = 3-4 hours of daily h/w, AP Calc BC = 2-3 hrs of h/w, and 3 of her other academic classes (AP French, Am. Lit., Chem Honors) = 30 min to 1.5 hour of h/w. I invite everybody to imagine the days when her summar h/w is at it's maximum. ;-)</p>

<p>Neither she, nor I want this year ever repeated."</p>

<p>I don't want to "hurt your or your daughter's feelings" but if you are serious about never wanting this year repeated, I might reconsider your choice of colleges. </p>

<p>The amount of time your daughter is spending on homework seems inappropriate and if she really needs to put in that much time and effort for these courses, she may be heading for disaster in college - if she never wants a repeat of this workload.</p>

<p>At my son's school, typical suburban public, the kids typically take APUSH, AP Calc BC, AP Chem or Physics C, AP Lang or Lit, AP French/Spanish or Honors French/Spanish IV in their junior year. None study as much as your daughter is studying - and most do very well in class and receive 5's on the exams. In addition, most are intensely involved in music/sportsdance/etc. </p>

<p>Realize that if she pursues admission to these selective schools - she may be forced to study inordinate amounts to "keep up" whith those for whom academics may come somewhat easier. </p>

<p>Please make sure you and your daughter take a realistic look at her abilities, preferences, study skills, passions, etc. when choosing colleges. She needs to find the place that will best meet her overall needs. Individuals find success in and from all levels of the academic spectrum. </p>

<p>Best wishes to your daughter.</p>

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<p>Chipper has a point, but I would suggest that your daughter check with her classmates first to see whether they are putting in as much time as she is.</p>

<p>If they are, it may simply mean that the school gives a lot of lengthy assignments, rather than that your daughter takes longer than most students do to complete her homework.</p>

<p>Sometimes, the differences lie in the teachers, rather than the students. My daughter also did an inordinate amount of work in APUSH, but she rarely spent more than 30 minutes per night on AP Calc BC, which seemed to be a very easy course. She got 5s on both tests. I think that the difference was in the way the two courses were taught, rather than in anything specific to my daughter.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I mean... think of it this way: if a college would reject your daughter because she opts to take music courses instead of AP sciences, or she opts for AP Stats instead of Chemistry.... is that the college your daughter really wants to attend?

[/quote]
I like this way of thinking. One's choice of a college is very much like one's choice of a spouse. While dating, anyone can turn on the charm, clean oneself up, and pretend to be someone much more interesting & attractive than reality. That would be nearly impossible to keep up over the course of a marriage. </p>

<p>I'm all for pushing oneself, challenging oneself, trying new disciplines one may not have thought were one's cup of tea. But that's different from completely reinventing oneself for the benefit of a college admissions committee.</p>

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<p>I think this OP is responding to find her daughter's best path within the many variables, hoping she'll have a range of choices next year so she can end up where she can fit in and thrive. Staying grounded while reaching for the stars is a huge task. Thankfully, Mom is on the job, checking out what is beyond the daughter's judgment to interpret. Good kid, good mom.</p>

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<p>Myau, about a 4 yr of math- can't she take a math class, or Physics even, at the CC? That would show ad-coms her continued progression in math, as opposed to Statictics, which is considered a step back. This is based on you saying she wants a shot at an elite college. Or, she could look into Stanford's EPGY program, which offer online classes in math, physics, etc.</p>

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<p>If the OP's daughter took BC Calc as a junior, then she's already had at least four years of high school math, which is how I interpret what the colleges want when they say "four years." Does the Alg and Geometry she took in middle school show up on her transcript? Did she get HS credit for it? If so, and she wants to drop Stat for higher level classes in her passion, I'd say got for it. </p>

<p>Marian, did your D take AP Enviro concurrent with or after precalc and chem? DS2 is looking at taking it soph year (he's going to take HL Bio so he can't use Enviro as his sixth subject). Is it a combined class with IB Enviro?</p>

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<p>I interpret it that way too. FWIW, the highest math OFFERRED at our school is AP Calculus AB and the math sequence is structured so that this class is taken only by seniors.</p>

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<p>Don't know if you consider it a "top school", but my d just got into University of Rochester with a nice merit scholarship. No AP science, no AP math. She's taking standard calculus (not even honors), and a 4th year of (honors) lab science. She's also a humanities kid.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Marian, did your D take AP Enviro concurrent with or after precalc and chem? DS2 is looking at taking it soph year (he's going to take HL Bio so he can't use Enviro as his sixth subject). Is it a combined class with IB Enviro?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>She's taking it as a senior as her IB science. It is a combined AP/IB SL class. She has already taken calculus, but that doesn't matter. Little math is required. I'm not sure about chemistry, but I don't think much of that is required, either. It had better not be because she doesn't remember any chemistry!</p>

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<p>I had one "math kid" and one not; both took BC calc; both scored 5's, neither spent more than half an hour a night on homework. I don't think it's just the kid.... it's also the quality of the teaching. So - another variable. If your D has found junior year to be a huge grind, she may either find college a cakewalk, more of the same, or even more intense.... but it might be worth checking in with college kids from your HS to get a sense as to whether your daughter's intense workload is representative.</p>

<p>On the one hand, sending a kid off to college who is suffering burnout from Senior year ain't much fun and I wouldn't do it to my kids. On the other hand, if your D ends up in a social science she'll have to take Stat's in college anyway, so the AP stats in HS is a bit of a waste. I'm not an adcom so I can't predict the future.... but the kids from my own kids HS who didn't take a science senior year (whether AP or not) were the academic light-weights...</p>

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<p>
[quote]
On the one hand, sending a kid off to college who is suffering burnout from Senior year ain't much fun and I wouldn't do it to my kids. On the other hand, if your D ends up in a social science she'll have to take Stat's in college anyway, so the AP stats in HS is a bit of a waste. I'm not an adcom so I can't predict the future.... but the kids from my own kids HS who didn't take a science senior year (whether AP or not) were the academic light-weights...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This was our experience as well. </p>

<p>To Myau - I suggested AP Chem because your daughter was thinking of taking it, and you seemed worried that not taking a 4th year of science might keep her out of some schools. I think it could, but then it might not. I'll bet it's rare that one such choice makes or breaks a decision to admit.
It's unfortunate that the way your HS courses are structured, seniors are left with so few challenging options. Are there any other science options other than Chem for seniors? </p>

<p>The problem I see in her schedule as I read it (AP stats, gov. Eng. + music courses) is that you only have 3 core subjects, and the difficulty of her senior year looks a lot lighter than her previous years. Another year of her language would help round things out and beef up the difficulty. Psych would not help, imo.
Is it possible for your D to sit down with a counsellor at school and ask how kids have done in the past with admissions who have similar schedules/grades ect. as hers? Colleges say that they take individual school offering into account when making decisions. Perhaps her counsellor could help her make a choice that she feels will be doable and compatible with her interests, without making a choice that might unnecessarily cut off options down the line. </p>

<p>btw - if cog sci is a possible interest, AP chem would be a valuable class!</p>

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<p>My d. was admitted all over the place without a single AP class. She did, however, take three AP exams, one in the sciences. (She didn't take a single high school class, either, and to this day has never had a class in "English" at either the grade school, middle school, high school, or college level. Helped her SAT score, and expect it will help her GREs as well. ;))</p>