<p>Look closely Ivy_Grad, according to Gourman, Michigan is #2 in Law.</p>
<p>Alexandre, that link you provided showing Businessweek's historical ranking breaks your case more than helps it:</p>
<p>No. of times its been outside the Top 5: 6 times out of 9
No. of times its been ranked inside the Top 5: 3 times out of 9</p>
<p>The overall average? 5.6 - i.e. OUTSIDE the Top 5.</p>
<p>let's split some hairs shall we?</p>
<p>Not really Ivy_Grad. My case is simple. Here's the average annualy ranking of the top 10 programs according to the BW:</p>
<h1>1 Kellogg (average ranking of 1.6)</h1>
<h1>2 Wharton (average ranking of 2.4)</h1>
<h1>3 Harvard (average ranking of 3.7)</h1>
<h1>4 Chicago (average ranking of 5.0)</h1>
<h1>5 Michigan (average ranking of 5.6)</h1>
<h1>6 Stanford (average ranking of 6.7)</h1>
<h1>7 Columbia (average ranking of 8.1)</h1>
<p>Like I said, Michigan's historic BW ranking is among the top 5. But even if it were #6, it still makes Ross a worthy elite program.</p>
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But even if it were #6, it still makes Ross a worthy elite program.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree that Ross is a worthy program. Here's the rub. "elite"? I just don't happen to think that Ross is an "elite" B-School and most people I've run into in the business world would agree.</p>
<p>It's a great b-school no doubt. But you can't classify it in the same class as Wharton / Harvard / Stanford / Kellogg - and frankly it's a notch below MIT / Chicago / Columbia.</p>
<p>you know why? it's a public school. the old school people on wall street or in big law firms prefer private schools. </p>
<p>I personally think if schools like Michigan and Virginia were private, they'd jump so much in ranking and public perception.</p>
<p>When you mention the word "private", people think of rich, gothic dining halls, wealthy students in tweed jackets and bow ties, fine wine+cheese. and people associate that with "elite".</p>
<p>when you mention "public", people's initial reaction is mediocre-ness, average facilities, normal kids in jeans and tshirts.</p>
<p>
[quote]
you know why? it's a public school. the old school people on wall street or in big law firms prefer private schools.</p>
<p>I personally think if schools like Michigan and Virginia were private, they'd jump so much in ranking and public perception.</p>
<p>When you mention the word "private", people think of rich, gothic dining halls, wealthy students in tweed jackets and bow ties, fine wine+cheese. and people associate that with "elite".</p>
<p>when you mention "public", people's initial reaction is mediocre-ness, average facilities, normal kids in jeans and tshirts.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Whether your view is 100% on the money or has 0% truth, it doesn't change the fact that you are effectively agreeing with my point - whether it's fair or not, whether seemingly superficial or not, at a certain point perceptions = reality.</p>
<p>Take for instance Alexandre's post above:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not really Ivy_Grad. My case is simple. Here's the average annualy ranking of the top 10 programs according to the BW:</p>
<h1>1 Kellogg (average ranking of 1.6)</h1>
<h1>2 Wharton (average ranking of 2.4)</h1>
<h1>3 Harvard (average ranking of 3.7)</h1>
<h1>4 Chicago (average ranking of 5.0)</h1>
<h1>5 Michigan (average ranking of 5.6)</h1>
<h1>6 Stanford (average ranking of 6.7)</h1>
<h1>7 Columbia (average ranking of 8.1)
[/quote]
</h1>
<p>So Businessweek's average historical numbers (over 10 years or so) have Michigan at #5.</p>
<p>But does anyone actually believe that Michigan's b-school is BETTER than Stanford, Columbia and MIT?</p>
<p>In other words, if you are forced to pull out a calculator and jot down these side notes to back up your case in the face of skepticism, then odds are you've already lost your audience... somehow I don't think the b-school students in Palo Alto are banging their collective heads over the revelation that their school's historical rank places them below Michigan - whereas Michigan grads (and <em>ahem</em> alums) will be quick to point out this quirky footnote.</p>
<p>
[quote]
1 Kellogg (average ranking of 1.6)</p>
<h1>2 Wharton (average ranking of 2.4)</h1>
<h1>3 Harvard (average ranking of 3.7)</h1>
<h1>4 Chicago (average ranking of 5.0)</h1>
<h1>5 Michigan (average ranking of 5.6)</h1>
<h1>6 Stanford (average ranking of 6.7)</h1>
<h1>7 Columbia (average ranking of 8.1)</h1>
<p>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, this is why I don't think BW is all that accurate. Kellogg is a fine school, but to say that it's better than HBS is a stretch in my opinion. Seriously, not too many people are going to turn down HBS for Kellogg.</p>
<p>You guys treat Alexandre as if he is just some random joe who went to Michigan because that was the best school he got into. He was accepted into a slew of ivy league/top 10 schools but made the wise decision to goto UMich because it is the most complete/well-rounded university in the world. You guys are always disrespecting Alexandre but he's actually one of the most well-informed and intelligent people on CC.</p>
<p>CCRunner is right Alexandre knows more about how all of this works than anyone else on the thread, so unless you have a question, leave alexandre alone.</p>
<p>But I am here to defend everyone elses points and not alexandre.</p>
<p>Alexandre - Michigan is great in all the categories no question, but people (whether they are in the know or not) when they hear "stanford" or "columbia" it is likely to hold more weight than "michigan" will. No matter what those rankings say, Ivy League schools and stanford ( and Maybe Cal and Duke) will sound more prestigious then UMich. No one thinks of Michigan as an "elitist" school which is a shame because its academics are better than some of the schools i listed, but it will forever be below all those schools in "relavent prestige"</p>
<p>Ivy_grad, it is your opinion that Michigan isn't "elite" in Business and Law. It is my opinion that it is. But we aren't here to discuss our opinions. That's what the individual university forums are for. </p>
<p>You asked me to back up my statement and I did. Over the last 18 years, BW (universally acknowledged to be one of the two most respected MBA rankings) has rated top MBA programs 9 times. In that period of time, Michigan's B school has been ranked just as highly as Chicago, Stanford, Columbia and Sloan according to BW. </p>
<p>As for Law schools, Gourman and the Insider, two of the 3 more respected rankings, rank Michigan in the top 5. The USNWR used to rank Michigan Law school among the top 5 too until the mid 90s and its peer assessment score is still among the top 6 or 7 accoding to the USNWR. So again, there is evidence to support that Michigan's law school is elite.</p>
<p>Farbdogg, I agree with your observation. But perception is not what we are talking about. We are discussing actual quality, as it is seen by recruiters and academe. Those are the people who really matter and they aren't interested in perception and aren't blinded by general opinion...they have formed their observations based on years of exposure to those universities and the product they churn out year-in/year-out.</p>
<p>It is not elite according to a layman, but it offers elite education in law.</p>
<p>
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but made the wise decision to goto UMich because it is the most complete/well-rounded university in the world. You guys are always disrespecting Alexandre but he's actually one of the most well-informed and intelligent
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While I can't speak for others, I can say that I respect Alexandre.</p>
<p>But as far as the most complete/well-rounded school in the world? Really? I have a feeling that schools like Harvard or Stanford might dispute this claim.</p>
<p>
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You guys treat Alexandre as if he is just some random joe who went to Michigan because that was the best school he got into.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
leave alexandre alone
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</p>
<p>err... a few comments:</p>
<p>1) Alexandre is a big boy and can take care of himself
2) Don't confuse my objections to Alex's COMMENTS as objections to HIM PERSONALLY - to quote Michael Corleone, "it's not personal, strictly business."
3) In point of fact, I have a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for Alexandre, and I've acknowledged this on more than one occassion.
4) Which is PRECISELY when I disagree with him I feel more compelled to point out my objections since his views will be taken with more than a grain of salt vis a vis your average CC poster.</p>
<p>
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Which is PRECISELY when I disagree with him I feel more compelled to point out my objections since his views will be taken with more than a grain of salt vis a vis your average CC poster.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But his, er, "fondness" for Michigan is also very well known. :p Theorectically that would be taken into account. </p>
<p>Not that I'm hating on UMich, of course. I would be thrilled to be holding an acceptance letter from Ross' PhD program three years from now.</p>
<p>IMO Harvard and Stanford are the only two indisputable "elites" when it comes to grad/professional school, but arguing over this sort of thing seems silly, even for CC. It's not like graduates of Johns Hopkins med school are crying over the fact that the rest of the university isn't viewed in the same light.</p>
<p>best business schools are 1.Harvard Business school, 2.Wharton,3.Stanford Business school,4.London Business school.
best law schools are 1.Yale,2.Harvard,3.Cambridge,4.Oxford.
best medical schools are 1.Cambridge,2.Harvard,3.Stanford,4.Imperial college of London.</p>
<p>The top 5 MBA programs are all in the US and LBS isn't even the top B school in Europe. That honor goes to INSEAD.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Harvard, Yale, and Stanford are the top law schools. </p>
<p>What, according to USNEWS?</p>
<p>Thanks, but I'll base my list on my own ACTUAL WORK experience working with L aw School grads from Y, H, S and Columbia. That's not to say that Stanford isn't awesome, it is - but in the end, Columbia's instant access to New York (Wall St. law firms, judicial clerkships, etc.) give it a slight edge over Stanford (in the real world).</p>
<p>Basically, if I were choosing grad schools, my list above constitutes my Top 3 in each discipline respectively.
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</p>
<p>Woah, chill out. I wasn't saying you were wrong or anything. I was just posting what people on the law board list as the top 3. I know you know more about grad schools than I do.</p>
<p>i'm chill. apologies if my tone was a bit aggressive...</p>