Top Law School or Not at All?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>I just read the op’s posting and had to reply. I have been a trial attorney since graduating lawschool in 1973. I went to George Washington University Law in D.C. It is a great school but has never ranked in the top 15 schools. I had no problem getting my first job nor the three jobs I subsequently found. I have a major problem with non-lawyers holding their noses when they mention the personal injury bar. I have represented with honor and great ability thousands of clients over these thirty four years. Some cases were basic accident cases, others were complex product liability matters. All of my clients were good people in need of legal assistance. The specialty of trial law is highly stressful yet fulfilling. One does not have to go to a top fifteen school to have a financially and intellectually rewarding career. I have lived a full and exciting professional life and have done quite well financially thank you.</p>

<p>So op and others out there show the correct deference to the trial/pi bar and we lawyers who went to those lawschools other than the top fifteen.</p>

<p>Dana’s Dad</p>

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<p>Dana’s Dad, here’s my question for you. </p>

<p>Suppose a senior English major with undergrad debt around the national average (~20K) is admitted to GW this fall. He has calculated that he’s going to have to borrow the full cost of tuition ($38,000/year), plus he has to live in DC for three years. He hopes to take home about $15,000 a year working part-time and in the summer, so he thinks he will have about $150,000 in debt when graduates. According to his loan calculator, he could pay that off in ten years with monthly payments of ~$1700, or in twenty years with monthly payments of ~$1200. He wants to stay in DC and do personal injury work.</p>

<p>He comes to you for advice. Is this a smart plan?</p>

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<p>DC has more lawyers per square mile than any other city in the United States.</p>

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<p>Hanna, my best friend from college did exactly as you described. Went to GW law AFTER graduate school in an attempt to get into med school after missing that boat from undergrad college. So she already had some loans before borrowing in full for GW as well as living in DC. She is currently a hot shot attorney at a national law firm in NYC and makes plenty of money. She has paid off her loan. GW may not be a top 14 or whatever the magic number is for law schools but those who do well there seem to do fine at the type of firms that pay the most. </p>

<p>I cannot answer about personal injury work as I have no idea what the pay schedules for that is. I can tell you that some of the richer lawyers I know are in that field, and I don’t think any of them went to top law firms. They just have the Type A personality needed to do well in that work. If that is the type of person, someone is and he wants to go into that type of work, he may do very well in it, as the outcome is commensurate to how successful you are instead of an hourly rate. Personally, I wouldn’t like that kind of work, and do not have the disposition for it, nor could I be a good salesperson. But those who really like the idea of doing those jobs, see it as a challenge and get satisfaction in fighting that fight, do get big awards, more than the pencil pushing lawyer.</p>

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<p>Hannah:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I would advise that person to do what hundreds of law students do each year and that is go to GW lawschool at night and work during the day. I know and knew many recent college grads who did law at night. I knew many married people who had their day job, had a quick dinner,went to class came home ,did homework, went to bed and repeated the process. If a person can’t afford lawschool they can take four or five years instead of three to get their JD. They can pay off loan obligations, pay as u go to law school. Is it really tough? Of course it is but so is life. If you want the law you pay the dues.</p></li>
<li><p>Hannah do you have any conception what the trade off is for those very few law grads who go right to the high power urban firms and get the super payday? They trade their lives for a big payday. They burn out, hate the law, go from firm to firm, have no relationships, get divorced, delay marriage, delay babies. They do the scud work for years kissing ass of senior associates and partners. So they can pay their debts.</p></li>
<li><p>Most young grads get jobs paying $40,000 to $75,000 and live with roommates, live at home,live small not large. When they get married or live with someone they live on the two incomes. They do what most Americans do(not the top 5%) They live pay check to paycheck, saving a bit and move up the ladder at work. Someday the loans are paid. Someday our mortgages are paid. It’s called living life Hannah.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>That’s my advice based upon your hypothetical. Most lawyers in the US make less than $145,000 per year at the height of their career. Most lawyers who dedicate their lives to the career loved what they do and are proud of themselves for the sacrifices they made.</p>

<p>Dana’s Dad</p>

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<p>Um in NYC, you DO live small, even on a $160k salary. If you live in Manhattan, you net a little less than $100k a year anyway. If you live outside NYC city limits, you net about $110k. Even after bonus, you net about $125k-$135k probably. And you’re not going to be living in any penthouse on $110k a year.</p>

<p>No wonder IB analysts have a hard time making ends meet in NYC…rent eats up their entire paycheck.</p>

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<p>

She most certainly does. I look forward to her perspective.</p>

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<p>I guess if you want to remain in the area, the least expensive way to go to law school is to live with the folks and go to a local state law school. If you do well, you will find successful alums from that school, a lot of them, who will be happy to hire you. The problem would be if you wanted to move to a big city where your school is not known or appreciated. But if you are doing well at a major firm in the town where you graduated, the chances are good that there would be contacts to get you a job where ever. If you make good in that first job, have the grades in law school, I don’t think you will have trouble finding a job elsewhere. A hard, effective worker is appreciated. The big issue would be if you tried to make an entry elsewhere immediately after law school and wanted a big name firm from a small name law school that is not local.</p>

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<p>

Cartera, is it accurate to say that school name matters more for that first job and decreases in importance over time, while GPA is (relatively) less important but increases?</p>

<p>I’m having a little trouble understanding why this might be so.</p>

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<p>Dana’s Dad, it sounds as though you agree with me that it’s a risky bet to borrow $150,000 to go to GW, especially if you don’t want to go to a big firm. So I’m not sure why you’re taking this condescending attitude with me.</p>

<p>“They live pay check to paycheck, saving a bit and move up the ladder at work. Someday the loans are paid. Someday our mortgages are paid. It’s called living life Hannah.”</p>

<p>Apparently you don’t think this is an especially desirable scenario, because you said you’d advise the GW student to work his butt off for five years and pay his way through school rather than taking massive loans. When you’re able to pursue your goals (home, children, public service, whatever) without an enormous financial burden on your back, it’s still called living life, isn’t it?</p>

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<p>I agree with Muffy333. Spend some time in a big law firm before making any decisions. Too many people end up in law school because they are finishing college and don’t know what to do next (myself included). There are alot of unhappy lawyers out there!</p>

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<p>There are a number of issues raised in this thread that I find interesting (and disturbing).</p>

<p>I understand the thought that one needs to god to a Top 10 (or whatever) law school so they can get a big paying job when they graduate to pay off all those loans. How sad . . .</p>

<p>I went to law school in the dark ages (early 80s) and paid $500 a semester at a top 25 public university law school. Many of the top students in my class got jobs at BigLaw firms. I did a judicial clerkship. After watching my friends at BigLaw firms I decided that wasn’t for me so after my clerkship I went to work at a small (VERY small) firm so that I could get good experience. “My” judge almost had a nervous breakdown! (He was a pipeline into the biggest, best biglaw firm in town.)</p>

<p>So why did I spurn biglaw?? I had no interest in being a glorified law clerk for the next 5 or so years. My friends were pumping out memos. They rarely (if ever) met with clients. They rarely go to court, and when they did, they sat quietly and observed. They worked insane hours (at the time 2000 - 2200 billable hours a year was the norm at those firms . . . my guess is that it’s higher now - if you were honest in your reporting, that meant you worked something like 12 hours a day, 7 days a week (I don’t remember the exact figures, although at the time we had it figured to the second!)</p>

<p>I wanted more! (and less) More experience; I met with and worked with clients almost from the beginning. I drafted documents (I did transactional work) from the beginning. I worked hard but not crazy hours (I usually had the entire weekend free). I found law fun and challenging. Yes, I made less than friends in biglaw, but not THAT much less.</p>

<p>And you know what? Most of my friends in biglaw left those firms within 3 years. A number left law altogether, completely burned out and hating anything to do with law.</p>

<p>And now the children of friends are having the same experience. A number of them, graduating at the top of their Top14 law schools and going into Biglaw firms (who can resist $150K with large signing bonuses??) have practiced for a couple of years and fled screaming! </p>

<p>I’d counsel anyone interested in law, especially biglaw to look deep in their heart as to why they want to practice law. If it’s mainly to earn big bucks, or to gain big power, there are FAR better and easier ways to do that than go to law school.</p>

<p>It’s a shame that young people get saddled with such debt that they feel pressured to take jobs that will help them pay that debt but at which the collateral price they pay is far too high. </p>

<p>(Full disclosure: I no longer practice law. I took a detour into academics after practicing for 6 years not because I was burned out with the law but because I lived in an area that was hard-hit by a recession that adversely affected the practice of law. I had always flirted with a career in academics and it seemed like a good move at the time. It was !!)</p>

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<p>bluedevil - that is correct. The first job after law school can be largely determined by first year grades. Those grades lead to the first clerkship that can lead to the first job. It is very common for grades to go down after the first year sometimes simply because students believe that being at Harvard and clerking at Shearman & Sterling is all they need to do. They are wrong. If that attorney decides to leave Shearman & Sterling to go to another biglaw, the next firm will look at the transcript and Cs on a transcript can be a non-starter at many firms. Sometimes, it just seems that standards are higher for a lateral move and even though a student got a great job with not so great grades out of a top school, the next firm is simply not as forgiving. Associates with a few years experience are often the cash cows of the firm -the highest profit margin comes with them so they try to choose those who will be successful for a few years. They really hope most of them don’t stay longer than that because partership is not in the cards for most, but they do like to keep them around in the 3-7 year range.</p>

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<p>

That sounds lovely.</p>

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<p>Yes, the economics of “biglaw” - not a pretty thing.</p>

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<p>The joys of pyramid schemes and winner takes all markets.</p>

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<p>As to the question about incurring large debt and doing personal injury work, I assume the reference is to plaintiff personal injury work. If that is the case, it is a real crap shoot. A few PI lawyers strike it rich - John Edwards rich. Most do not.</p>

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<p>If you’re going to do PI work, there is no need to go to a ‘top school.’ All you really need is the degree and the license, and a state school does quite well for that.</p>

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<p>My dad hires at a top firm in the area. He has always told my sister (who want to be a lawyer) that grades in college matter maybe more than other degrees. He recently hired an associate and his pay is accordining to his pay. I think it does have a lot to do where you go, but your grades are very, very, very, important. In law especially, once you have been out of school for a couple of years, it matters more on your record and work, etc. Hope that helps. If you want more statistics or anything, let me know!</p>

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<p>If your dad is involved in hiring for what we refer to here as a “biglaw” firm, he will tell you that even when an attorney has been out for a number of years, the firm will still ask for a transcript and grades still matter. I can’t think of any large law firm I work with that doesn’t require a transcript before interviewing begins.</p>