<p>My husband’s income was never dependant upon cashflow. I guess that he was lucky that the firm he worked for was successful. Now that he is on his own cashflow varies, but he is happier, makes more money overall, and he no longer needs to punch a clock. When our children were small they never saw him. He was working from early in morning until really late at night.</p>
<p>when i worked for the large firm, the billing and collection process was completely invisible to us associates. we were expected to get our time sheets in on time, but that was about it.</p>
<p>when i worked for the small firm, everyone was very aware of the issues of getting the bills out and money collected. and associates were also sometimes urged to be very time efficient since the clients at the small firm were much more cost conscious than those at the large firm. timesheets and proper billing and reimbursements were discussed constantly, whereas i think it was rarely discussed at the large firm i worked at.</p>
<p>If I wanted to be a lawyer, I would take the risk. But if I were just looking at opportunities to make money, I would not. The same with med school and other grueling, expensive courses of study. There are many other ways to have a greater chance of increasing income with less outlay of cash and time than to go to med school or law school. </p>
<p>But if that’s what you want to do, be a lawyer, you might as well give it a try. If your focus is so narrow that all you want to be is a big corporation attorney, that is a whole different story. Unless you have certain factors going your way, the chances are very small. Even then, getting that elusive partnership can be a stressful pipedream. Not that it is impossible, and if you are truly determined and that is absolutely what you want, I guess I would not be the one to say, it’s impossible. But someone who does not have the grades, LSAT scores, chances to get into a top law firm (though I truly believe limiting it to the top10-20 is narrow–I know too many friend who are there from name schools not in that number who are partners in mightly fine national firms) are small. If you are a certain workaholic type, the chances are small too. My neighbor is a type A workaholic, smart as a whip, law review, name law school, name undergrad, and he did not get his partnership after busting his chops for years. He now has made partner after a second try, but he works like a beast. Often a 90 hours + week, and at this point, he is not doing it because he likes his job–he hates it. He is doing it because he has kids, house, other stuff that he can’t bear to give up now that he has it. Not a good life in my book.<br>
My college roommate, on the other hand, loves her life. A senior partner in a very top firm (and she did not graduate from the top 14), it was definitely the right move for her. She loves her work, this is her thing. And good for her! But she did not go into this for the money; it fits her very personality. </p>
<p>My friend’s daughter (again not top 14 school, but a top student) is starting a job with a major firm. Whether the job will suit her, we’ll see. She went into this wanting to be an attorney but no plans to be in a major firm. She was surprised that it turned out to be an choice for her. But she did get straight A’s in law school AND as an undergrad. If the lifestyle does not work out for her she is willing to switch to something else. And could if she does not spend her salary and make her lifestyle dependent on the big pay. It will pay for her loans anyways. </p>
<p>But a B student who wants the prestige of the job as folks want the prestige of a college like HPY rather than fit—wrong decision, bad investment in that the odds are against you.</p>
<p>cpt, I have to say that my H, a graduate of a mediocre law school, loves what he does. I mean that he absolutely loves it. I cannot imagine him doing anything else. Since he has been on his own, he has had time to spend with our kids. He was able to coach, help with school projects, and now go on college visits. </p>
<p>When my H worked for a small firm he was taught a system for keeping his timesheets. He was asked to collect from some clients, and his boss collected from other clients. This varied. They tried not to let bills get out of hand. I guess if they were they had to ask to be relieved as counsel (I believe that’s the jargon). His income did not depend on clients paying their bills timely. Now it obviously does and that is the big difference between working for someone else or for yourself. In my husband’s earlier years he worked the insane hours that cpt mentions his neighbor doing. If he was in trial I just did not see him. There were a few times that he even just rented a hotel room near his office or court if the weather was bad and he was working such long hours.</p>
<p>In the November/December issue of the ABA magazine dedicated to the Section of Business Law, there is a short but interesting article which I have exerpted below:</p>
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<p>What is most interesting to me is that nine months after graduation, almost ten percent of law school graduates have no job at all – not even a contract position, a document review position or a paralegal position. That is frightening for someone who is considering taking out even $50,000 in student loans.</p>
<p>^ Those quotes are very believable to me. Unemployment is frightening. 50k in debt is fairly easy to get into too. The average debt for undergrads I think is nearing 20,000. Some students work for a few years and pay off their undergraduate debt before they take on new loans for law school, but law school is expensive.</p>
<p>I don’t think it is that frightening. I know several kids who went to grad/law school or to a highly selective college who were not employed for a year or so afterwards because they were doing other non work things. Some were off in Tibet or a world tour after all of those years of school. Some were working volunteer. Some were back at school for something else. We do have some very indulged kids in this generation. I envy all the kids I know whose parents sent them off to China or Europe. An option once reserved to the very rich. </p>
<p>Also, depending how those stats are reported could make a difference. Did nearly 10% of those kids specifically say they are unemployed? </p>
<p>I agree that students should look carefully about investing the time and money and energy before jumping into law school. But if they truly want to go into the field of law, though they should be aware of the stats, they should not give up this option because of these stats. </p>
<p>I really worry more about kids taking out huge loans as undergrads for schools and programs that are not going to pay back when they have less expensive options available that would leave them more flexible for law school and other professional education. A law degree does give someone more options for the money expended. A foolish, expensive undergrad choice can leave someone with fewer options when he is out.</p>
<p>There is often an emphasis on these boards to showcase how the “best and brightest” do and it may be interpreted by some, that it is the norm.</p>
<p>Yes, the very top law school grads may get $160,000 to start their law career-- but in the real world, there are alot of lawyers who are making $160,000 at the peak of their careers.<br>
Law can be lucrative, but the bulk of attorneys are not making exorbitant salaries. And many kids today are thrilled with getting their first legal job as a DA or in the State AG’s office where the starting salary is (I’m guessing)
in the $50,000-60,000 range. and my understanding that those jobs are extremely competitive and hard to get.</p>
<p>as it has been said many times before- if money is the main reason you are looking at law school, I’d broaden my horizons and look elsewhere too!!</p>
<p>and many of the lawyers I know (and I do know alot) usually dissuade their kids from going to law school!!</p>
<p>Based on my experience, if you want to trek through Europe, do it before law school. It is not looked upon as kindly out of law school. Taking time off after law school to follow other interests is risky - unless you’re getting your PHD in chemistry or biology of getting an LL.M. in tax.</p>
<p>Just to be clear, the ABA artile was discussing only graduates of law school, not graduates of college. I believe that college grads are a lot more likely to go off on some jaunt to China for a year than a law student who has student loan debt to service (in fact, the multitudes of college grads with student loans likely do not have the luxury of a jaunt either). I highly doubt that 10% of law school graduates are unemployed 9 months after graduation because they have chosen not to work at all.</p>
<p>Let me emphasize again, too, that the numbers in that article do not represent the number of law school graduates who are underemployed upon graduation from law school, working as contract and temp attorneys, paralegals and document review clerks. Yes, they are doing legal work but they aren’t being paid well for it and they are likely not gaining the experience that a young lawyer needs to fast track any kind of legal career.</p>
<p>SO if I am reading this correctly, you have about 10% who are unemployed
- 9 months after law school graduation</p>
<p>and an unknown percentage who are “underemployed”-- (temp attorneys-contract and document review clerks).</p>
<p>once firms and corporations realize that they can get by with hiring “underemployed attorneys” and temporary legal staff to do document reviews, para-legal responsibilities, and preliminary courtroom work, the Corporations may cut back their in-house legal staff as they will not have to hire as many full time attorneys and pay high salaries and full benefits. They can rely more on their Temp legal staff to do the background and research. And of course as “independent contractors”, the underemployed attorneys will be responsible for their health and pension costs. </p>
<p>The world of employment is changing for EVERYONE!
less and less job security, lower salaries and a certain unease about the future. </p>
<p>I am actually glad I am getting older- I think our kids and grandkids are going to have it a lot tougher than we did.</p>
<p>just went to LSD site in which they mentioned an article- so I’m gonna try to link it up</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.balkin.blogspot.com/2007/11/are-law-schools-harming-individuals-and.html]Balkinization[/url”>Balkinization: Are Law Schools Harming Individuals and Society?]Balkinization[/url</a>]</p>
<p>hope the link works! It does work- didn’t have time to read the article- but a quick glance, it looks like it is a similar topic to our discussion.</p>
<p>Firms and corporations have always known that they could hire attorneys to do document review, etc. and many do. Many of my clients hire contract attorneys and many hire staff attorneys - attorneys who for one reason or another are not on the regular associate/partnership track. They go through cycles where they’ll hire more contract workers and then decide it isn’t really cost effective because they can’t bill them out at the rate of associates so they go back to giving the work to associates and around and around. Unemployable attorneys are not a threat to the associates and attorneys that these firms and corporations want to hire.</p>
<p>I interned for an attorney last year who didn’t go to a well-known undergrad or grad school. But he’s still got a thriving firm. If you want to start your own firm it doesn’t really matter where you went. However, if you plan on working with other firms, getting into a good school does matter.</p>
<p>I have no direct experience with law school, however my sister went to a 4th tier law school, not even ranked- she also only got her GED and got a middling GPA in a middling state school for undergrad, and she still got a position in a Biglaw firm, made just as much if not more (since she worked more) than her Harvard law counterparts, and was offered partner. It should be noted however that before she went to law school, she worked as a secretary/paralegal for about a decade. </p>
<p>However, I guess Biglaw isn’t what you would consider a good job- she left as soon as possible after she made a good sum of money.</p>
<p>What? She made partner and then left? Which “biglaw” firm was this?</p>
<p>I’ve known many attorneys who have left “biglaw” after making partner. Things don’t change a lot after making partner at many firms. They still work incredibly long hours, and even though they are partners, there is very little involvement in any decision-making. With many firms, there are non-equity partners who are salaried and aren’t treated much differently than senior associates. It is not the golden ring that many imagine.</p>