Top public universities are becoming disproportionately whiter & richer

Parents Forum
41

<p>Yes, she has a college degree, but always wonders about what might have become of her being the class valedictorian had she not been low-income.
Its not too late till you are in the ground.
I have a friend who is in her early 60s and is back at school to change her career ( and working full time driving a city bus)
Yes I wonder where I would be if I had attended college after high school- for about 10 seconds- the important thing to me- is what I am doing * now* about continuing to pursue my dream- and deal with the obstacles when they come</p>

<p>I don't think the huge public schools in our state- are the best schools for many kids- they are the only places to get a certain major sometimes- but I would like my d to have classes of fewer than 400 students- even as a freshman.</p>

42

<p>SS, very true. OTOH, that isn't the point, which was that people of low income or minority status are relegated to less than stellar choices, if they go to college at all, when their status as high achievers should have afforded them more opporuntities. </p>

<p>That point is really undeniable.</p>

43

<p>Some of the kids who have challenging or dysfunctional homes would do better to get away from all of that and start a new life away at college, if possible. I am not just referring to low income families. There are some very well to do famiilies that just are not a good match for their kids. Sometimes it is good to get that distance. On the other hand, there are kids who are not ready to leave home, and for them, local schools are the better choice. It is difficult though, to assess where a student is. Some kids are better off at home even with issues with family. </p>

<p>The problem with many of the flagship state unis is that they are very numbers oriented. They do not give 100% of need, and merit money goes according to academic stats, though there may be a few scholarships earmarked for URMs. So those kids with borderline stats, are not going to be able to afford going away to many state schools if their families cannot afford to send them. Better to go to community college, or local U and pay for the education credit by credit, getting some federal/state aid which leaves a smaller dollar amount left for the family/student to pay. My hair stylist wanted to send her daughter to State U but the financial package made it infeasible, and she is now going to a community college with hopes of transferring to a commutable 4 year school, and she is and expects to work through the entire process. Our state tuition is very reasonable, but the total cost of $16K was more than this family could pay even with some aid thrown in there. THey do not want to take out loans, as the family is already loan ridden and is struggling to make some headway on them. I think this young lady would have been an excellent State U candidate, but her stats were just about where they needed to be to gain acceptance and no where near merit money coonsideration. Not a URM, but a low income family. The money just did not surface at any "sleep away" colleges including some catholic and other private schools along with some state choices.</p>

44

<p>Allmusic, they are not relegated. Minority students with good stats are in demand. If they choose not to attend an elite insitution, it is done for individual reasons that may be excellent ones. We can't say, not knowing the circumstances. Low income students are offered generous aid & opportunity. Again, circumstances are individual. </p>

<p>If a low-income and/or minority family values an elite institution, they will make efforts to send their kids to one & are given support to do so. You are judging their choice to be a poor one if they choose a lower-ranked or local school. That's not necessarily true. In fact, it borders on arrogant.</p>

45

<p>
[quote]
THey do not want to take out loans

[/quote]
Here, again, is choice coming into play. This might prove to be an excellent choice. Avoid more debt, take advantage of the community college system, and transfer later. A prudent exercise in delayed gratification. Not a story to make one swoon or earn envious stares from colleagues, but perhaps the best possible choice for that family.</p>

46

<p>"One friend basically raised her six siblings and went to the local CC, then to the very poor NON-flagship right near home. Yes, she has a college degree, but always wonders about what might have become of her being the class valedictorian had she not been low-income."</p>

<p>I agree that's a sad way to go through life. THere are plenty of people who faced far worse challenges -- weren't even able to go to college at all when they were young due to family obligations - yet made good lives for themselves.</p>

<p>It's wrong to assume that the college makes the person. It's the person that counts. Why the very top universities are known for having such successful alum is not due to the education that those alum get: It's due to the types of people that the universities select: highly intelligent, hard working, assertive people with demonstrated leadership experience. The same people would have probably ended up just as successful if they'd gone to Podunk U.</p>

<p>I taught at a third tier, and some of our top students attended our school for the same reasons that your friend attended hers. The top students also ended up as successful -- sometimes even more successful -- than did some Ivy grads. For instance, one of my former students, who graduated about 8 years ago, just got a prestigious national professional fellowship at an Ivy that had never before gone to a person in her profession. She was first gen college and completely put herself thorugh college, starting locally at community college. She amassed such a stellar record that when she graduated, she had more than 9 job offers from some of the top companies in her field.</p>

<p>Back to your friend: Overcoming the challenges that life gave her helped her develop personal characteristics that would put her ahead of most other people -- if she realizes her strengths and takes full advantage of them.
Anyone who could become a valedictorian and manage to graduate from college despite raising six siblings has an exceptional work ethic, organizational skills and other important characteristics that would allow such a person to become successful in virtually any field regardless of where she obtained her degree.</p>

<p>If she pitched her background to her employers by highlighting it as a strength, not something for her to hide or be ashamed of, many people would give her opportunities that they wouldn't give to a flagship or Ivy silver spooner whose accomplishments were assisted by family, connections and comfort.</p>

<p>You might want to give her a copy of the book "Ditch Diggers daughter" about how a family of, I think, 5 low income girls managed to all become doctors despite having uneducated parents and going to third tier colleges.</p>

47

<p>Ditch Digger's Daughter is awesome!</p>

48

<p>Parents have a lot to say about what kids do after high school
Our family- as I have mentioned- is lower middle class- blue collar and enjoys a very basic standard of living in one of the most beautiful, but most expensive areas in the US.
We always had education as a priority- sometimes over other things- which might have made more sense.
We also were committed to paying the FAFSA EFC, even if it meant that we had to take out loans to do so ( which it did)- some families don't feel comfortable doing that- but then that comes with limiting of choices.</p>

<p>I counsel teens at my Ds inner city high school- re college- as do many parents in the parent group.The school encourages all kids to try and attend college, in fact a requirement to play football, is to take the SATs and college prep classes.
Most of the teens that I try and help are minorities, many low income minorities. They are the ones who may not have realized until junior or senior year, that they want to attend college.( other students- who have been in a college track program- don't need the extra support from the parent group- the students I see, still see the high school counselor, but they need extra guidance, that the counselors- who have about 400 students apiece, don't have time for)
Their parents may not have much knowledge about further education or know where to find it. I don't usually recommend the flagship U, for a few reasons- its huge- its just a few miles from the high school & I think it serves the kids to get out of the area & also I know that there already are groups bringing information from the university campus to the high school campus and back again- so it is a known entity, what I try and do are help them expand the places they might consider.
Many, because of family commitments, are looking at several options. Often one includes beginning at a community college, which given that they may not have gotten really serious about school until late in their high school career, makes a lot of sense. Others have heard alot about HBCU schools & are interested in living in an area with a larger minority population than their city.
The high school has groups( many) for the purpose of increasing the numbers of minorities in college- some groups are aiming at the top colleges- others are just trying to get the kids college ready.</p>

<p>Unfortunately- by far it is the AA girls, who are interested, the boys don't necessarily see it as their path. However- I know that many students-even excellent ones, don't necessarily go directly to college and 20 years later- they may be indistinguishable from those that did.</p>

<p>I just try and help them ( along with the other parents and teachers) see that there are ways to continue their studies & even if they don't know right now what they want to do for the next 20 years- its ok to start by taking another class here or there, that isn't required for high school graduation, that is only to whet their interests-because I think once they start trying it, they will see it isn't as scary as they thought.</p>

<p>( I thought this was a great story about 3 former CC students)
I know there are alot of stories like it- I know lots of people- who didn't go to college or didn't continue college after high school but started at a CC in their 30s or later and transfered and graduated from a 4 year university.

[quote]
Edmonds CC</p>

<p>Edmonds Community College will honor three former students at its 2006 Distinguished Alumni awards reception tonight.</p>

<p>The recipients are Mary Dawes, director of major and career exploration at Arizona State University; Linda Kuehnert, a chemistry instructor at Shoreline Community College; and Marc Davies, a paralegal with the King County prosecutor's office.</p>

<p>Dawes credited Edmonds CC with helping her regain her academic confidence. She went on to earn a doctorate in psychology from Arizona State University. Kuehnert raised two children before returning to college in her 30s. She earned a master's degree in organic chemistry from the University of Washington. Davies, a former photographer for the Army in Vietnam, came to Edmonds CC to retrain for a career in his 40s after a leg injury prevented him from continuing to operate his small business.

[/quote]
</p>

49

<p>Alas, the flagship U's in my state, Michigan, have very little choice but to now become whiter and richer...thanks to the passing of Proposition 2 last month which, by law, prohibits affirmative action. Yesterday, U of M, after consulting it's lawyers, announced that they will no longer be using race, gender, or any other minority identifier in admissions decisions...because they cannot. Other state universities have made similar announcements.</p>

50

<p>I live in a major state. We have college presidents, bank presidents as well as some of the state's top elected officials who started at community colleges and who proudly list those colleges on their resumes. Some of these people also graduated from second and third tier public institutions. </p>

<p>In many cases, these people were smart, highly ambitious and low income, first generation college students. In other cases, they were late bloomers. Their brains, work ethic and other atttributes caused they to pass many others who had gone to colleges that were ranked higher.</p>

<p>While I don't think that state flagships should become repositories for the privileged, at the same time, I know that people can have very financially and otherwise successful lives despite having to go to a lower ranked university.</p>

<p>Indeed, if the state flagships are becoming overwhelmingly white, wealthy, Asian and privileged, I fear that in this global economy, their graduates will be disadvantaged because of their lack of intimate knowledge about the rest of society.</p>

51

<p>Northstar, I hung out with plenty of community college grads this weekend at my 30th h.s. reunion. Most have since earned graduate degrees. All happy, healthy, successful. They were highly ambitious, first-generation college students with multiple siblings back then. In some fields, an Associates degree is the terminal degree. So I agree that CCs serve a wonderful purpose.</p>

<p>The reunion knocked this tidbit out of my foggy memory bank: One of my classmates decided to attend Marquette & her family was taking out a second mortgage. That news sent a shock wave through our largely blue-collar/lower-middle-class school. Nobody could believe the financial risk her family was undertaking. That was NEVER done back then in my neck of the woods.</p>

52

<p>
[quote]
Also these schools are not targetting minorities as aggresively as some of the private schools

[/quote]

Why should they? How much taxpayer money should be spent in the wooing process? I'm sure that the URMs who are qualified to attend the flagships and are considering higher-end privates already know about the flagship and are smart enough to make up their own mind whether to go there or not. My Ds ended up attending flagships in California but didn't need to be deluged with marketing literature from the schools in order to make their decision to attend them rather than some of the private schools that sent stacks of literature repeatedly.</p>

<p>
[quote]
people of low income or minority status are relegated to less than stellar choices

[/quote]

They're not 'relegated' at all. They can make the decision of which college best appeals to them from a 'package' perspective. There's a great deal of financial aid available to low income people. I really don't think finances are the primary reason low income people don't attend a flagship U. Let them do what others do and take advantage of grants available and student loans available and pay back the loans after graduating (as I happily did many years ago).</p>

<p>
[quote]
While I don't think that state flagships should become repositories for the privileged, at the same time, I know that people can have very financially and otherwise successful lives despite having to go to a lower ranked university.

[/quote]

This is absolutely true. Face it, how difficult is the subject material at the undergrad level and why does anyone think it could only be successfully taught at a few top end colleges? There are many ways to achieve a successful college career depending on one's desires and circimstances. There are endless examples of highly successful people who went to 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier and other schools including trade schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Indeed, if the state flagships are becoming overwhelmingly white, wealthy, Asian and privileged, I fear that in this global economy, their graduates will be disadvantaged because of their lack of intimate knowledge about the rest of society.

[/quote]

Firstly, I don't think that college is the only or necessarily the best place for people to become exposed to the rest of society. I think it's generally not the best place since by its nature, it will only be a slice of people who all ended up at the same place and probably have more in common than they realize. As the selectivity bar raises, this becomes more true since a narrower slice is taken. A white and black who both happen to be attending a flagship U probably have much more in common (high-achievers, successful students, focused, work ethic, both selected the same U, will have same classes/profs, etc.) than the whites would have with other non high-achieving whites are blacks from non high-achieving blacks. Knowledge of the 'rest of society' won't happen at the Unis unless the students get out into the rest of society through volunteer work, involvement in different (to them) communities, etc. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Alas, the flagship U's in my state, Michigan, have very little choice but to now become whiter and richer

[/quote]

While this is likely to happen in the short term it's not required that it be the state for the long term. Maybe it'll help to emphasize the fact that there are fewer 'qualified' URMs than people realized while it was being masked by AA. Maybe now more focus will be placed in the root cause areas (home life, K-8, 9-12) and eventually higher numbers of qualified URMs will result and ideally (I know it's not simple) the term 'URM' won't apply anymore.</p>

53

<p>"I really don't think finances are the primary reason low income people don't attend a flagship U."</p>

<p>Actually, I think that the finances are important. What's a "cheap" college to a middle class person or affluent person is a lot of money to a low income student.</p>

<p>Low income students also are likely to go to weak schools, so aren't likely to get merit aid-winning scores. They may not have the time or transportation to do the kind of ECs that may lead to major merit aid. I doubt that any public universities guarantee to meet 100% of students' documented need. The aid that they provide is usually well under what students need, and also is very heavy on loans.</p>

<p>I know that at the third tier college where I taught, the 6-year graduation rate was low because students often had to drop out to earn $ to continue school. It was not unusual to see students also sending money home from their jobs in order to help their families of origin. </p>

<p>Even low income students with sky high gpas may have to pass up flagship publics to live at home and go to a CC or a much lower ranked university that they can commute to.</p>

54

<p>Quote: “Sure is true in Florida with Jeb Bush's initiative to get the top students to stay instate. They practically pay the kids to stay.”</p>

<p>Florida students who have a 3.5 weighted GPA, 1270 (CR/Math) SAT, and 75 hours of community service receive 100% tuition and fees, plus $300 per semester for books, at state publics (or the equivalent at state privates). Students with a 3.0 weighted GPA, 970 SAT, and 75 hours receive 75% of tuition and fees at state public universities, or 100% of tuition and fees at community colleges. These awards are for all Florida residents, regardless of income. Incidentally, of the students I have personally known that have NOT been eligible for these awards, without exception it has been because of the service requirement!</p>

<p>At this time, there is absolutely no reason for a student in Florida to not be able to attend college, as far as I’m concerned. And as Martha says, that is a good thing.</p>

<p>This program has had a huge impact on raising the standards at our state schools. It is now generally assumed that students who aspire to go to UF need at least 3 to 5 APs, a weighted GPA of 4.0+, and 1300+ SAT (to be safe). It did not used to be this way. As more students chose to stay in state, the competition to get into the state schools increased, especially at UF, which has become extemely selective.</p>

<p>At the same time, it is relatively easier to get into UF as a transfer student with proven success from a CC; many students who don’t quite make the “cut” do it this way. It’s cheaper, they can save money by working and attending CC for two years, and they get into their dream school. I know of several who have done this. Perhaps this accounts for some of the disparities seen in Florida, especially at UF. I know many families who find “CC to State U” an extremely attractive option, especially those that really don’t have the money to blow on two years of room and board.</p>

<p>There are also a number of traditionally minority universities in Florida, with a rich historical tradition. It would be interesting to know how, for example, FAMU’s recruitment of National Achievement Scholars affects the statistics. Or the fact the FAMU and FSU (which are neighbors) pair up in some disciplines (engineering, for example). In other words, is this really simply an example of students choosing to live on one campus over another?</p>

<p>I believe the Florida Bright scholarship program has been a great thing for our state. We keep our future workforce at home and at the same time raise the status of all our state schools, community colleges as well as public universities. And it hasn’t taken money out of anyone’s pocket, at least not unwillingly, since it’s funded by the lottery.</p>

55

<p>Doubleplay, If only we had this deal in all of our states!</p>

56

<p>"There are also a number of traditionally minority universities in Florida, with a rich historical tradition. It would be interesting to know how, for example, FAMU’s recruitment of National Achievement Scholars affects the statistics"</p>

<p>FAMU stopped recruiting National Achievement Scholars after Fred Humphries stepped down as president about 6 years ago. Prior to that, FAMU sometimes was the top school in the country in terms of the numbers of Achievement Scholars in its freshman class.</p>

<p>According to the UF site, as of Jan., 2005, here are the top colleges for recruiting those students. Note, this reflects all of the enrolled undegrad Achievement Scholars, not just Achievement Scholars in the freshmen class. </p>

<p>"GAINESVILLE, Fla. --- The University of Florida has moved to the top spot in public universities’ enrollment of both National Merit Scholars and National Achievement Scholars, as announced by the National Merit Corp. </p>

<p>Overall, UF ranks second nationally in National Merit Scholars and fourth nationally in National Achievement Scholars within its 2004-05 freshman class. </p>

<p>With 259 National Merit scholars recruited, UF is behind only Harvard University in recruiting more National Merit scholars in 2004. In 2003, UF recruited 224 National Merit Scholars and ranked fourth nationally; in 2002, UF recruited 186 National Merit scholars, placing it fifth among all universities and second among public universities. This year, there are 8,258 National Merit Scholars enrolled nationally at 375 institutions. "</p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard University -- 312</li>
<li>University of Florida -- 259</li>
<li>University of Texas -- 242</li>
<li>Yale University -- 224</li>
<li>Stanford University -- 217</li>
<li>University of Chicago -- 198</li>
<li>Washington University at St. Louis -- 197</li>
<li>Princeton University -- 192</li>
<li>University of Southern California -- 183</li>
<li>University of Oklahoma -- 170</li>
</ol>

57

<p>*Actually, I think that the finances are important. What's a "cheap" college to a middle class person or affluent person is a lot of money to a low income student.</p>

<p>Low income students also are likely to go to weak schools, so aren't likely to get merit aid-winning scores. They may not have the time or transportation to do the kind of ECs that may lead to major merit aid. I doubt that any public universities guarantee to meet 100% of students' documented need. The aid that they provide is usually well under what students need, and also is very heavy on loans.</p>

<p>I know that at the third tier college where I taught, the 6-year graduation rate was low because students often had to drop out to earn $ to continue school. It was not unusual to see students also sending money home from their jobs in order to help their families of origin. </p>

<p>Even low income students with sky high gpas may have to pass up flagship publics to live at home and go to a CC or a much lower ranked university that they can commute to.*</p>

<p>This is a frustrating double whammy
When low income students do really well in school- unfortunately- just from what i have seen- it isn't because they have had supportive family- it is despite their family.
They may come from circumstances that it wouldn't even cross their minds to attend college- I know even when we when the kids were younger asked their grandparents ( their blue collar but middle class grandparents) for savings bonds for the girls for xmas- their response was " you don't think they are going to college do you?"
They thought that our ideas were too "above our station" apparently
Some of the parents at my Ds school dont encourage their kids to try to take more rigourous classes and may even discourage them & this is at a school known for its academics
It * is scary* to think about your kids going on to a different life- I know I feel strange- because my daughter is so much more cognisant of what is out there than I am.
But this is why we have kids- to help them broaden their world- even if it makes us feel like from teh "old country"</p>

58

<p>Not to get off topic, but I'm getting the gist that CC is considered inferior to flagship university. That has not been my experience. I attended a flagship "public Ivy," and upon entering the workforce afterward, took additional classes at the local community college at night. The professors there were top notch and caring, the classes small, and I can honestly say that the overall education, compared to the public Ivy (with it's 400+ freshman/sophomore seminar classes), was superior. My husband went the CC to State U route and ended up graduating with a 4.0, getting unbelievable newgrad job offers, and has had a successful career. I'm not getting the notion that going to community college is a bad thing. If anything, I believe that had I started there I would have had a much better first/second year undergrad experience.</p>

59

<p>" The professors there were top notch and caring, the classes small, and I can honestly say that the overall education, compared to the public Ivy (with it's 400+ freshman/sophomore seminar classes), was superior."</p>

<p>Doubleplay raises an important point. CC profs are likely to be teaching because they like teaching. CCs also pride themselves on their teaching and motivating abilities.</p>

<p>Professors at flagships and Ivies are chosen for their research, not teaching abilities.</p>

60

<p>I disagree, Emeraldkity. The majority of successful low income students I know, and I know many, have very supportive families. Many of them are high in education, and just low in money. Some are the old hippy families, some are student families where the parents never really got out of the post grad grind, and some just never found a job that paid well, or had trouble keeping jobs and handling money, but the focus on education and love and nurturing for their children rang through nontheless. </p>

<p>The other category of low income, educationally successful kids I know, are those from Asian immigrant families where the focus of the family is to get those kids into top colleges and lucrative professions. No one on CC is unfamiliar with the stereotype of the pushy Asian parent. Many of such immigrant families may be working menial jobs here, but came from environments of higher education that may have been disrupted by war. The tradition of academic excellence is prized and the kids are raised that way. I know several families who live in substandard housing, clearly cannot afford luxeries, but their kids are tutored relentlessly, take music lessons from master teachers and have expensive musical instruments, even as they live in slum like area. These exceptions to the educational rule of income/achevement are not many but far more than truly exceptional kids who rise above their environment. Such kids who have truly dysfunctional families and have to walk the education line themselves are too rare, and they are the jewels all of the top colleges want. Too often excellence is "bought" to a large degree by parents who want the best for their children.</p>