Top-ranked programs in average schools

<p>S is interested in a particular undergrad degree program and is applying to colleges that have top-ranked programs in his field of interest. Vast majority of the top programs are at large state universities, and some of the best programs are in lower tier 1 or tier 3 schools. </p>

<p>I am a little worried about the discrepancy between being in a highly ranked program within a university whose overall academic rigor is less so. I would appreciate hearing others' opinions and experiences on this issue.</p>

<p>Generalizations are rather useless. If you mention specific programs and specific schools you might get some interest in responding.</p>

<p>While I understand the concern, I think these type of programs are a true hidden value.</p>

<p>The top ranked programs are the sacred cow on that campus and tend to be well funded. They will be more insulated from cuts than smaller or less regarded departments.</p>

<p>My son is at a Tier 3 with a highly regarded engineering program in his field. It has been an outstanding experience at a reasonable price. His twin Brother is at a top 25 private university with the same major and I don’t see much difference in quality of instruction or rigor. </p>

<p>Neither has seen TA’s teaching classes (except for labs) and both have classes about the same size.</p>

<p>Both are getting a great education. I assumed the top private would be better but I sure don’t see much evidence of it.</p>

<p>Now I would say this my experience and that can vary based on the Tier 3 school and program involved.</p>

<p>I think it is a mistake to equate university overall ranking with academic rigor. Ranking systems are contaminated by so many factors that you are never going to get a true measure of academic rigor from that form of “measurement”. I do think that highly ranked academic departments get that way by demonstrating the academic rigor of the teaching faculty (and consequent effects in grad school admissions/employment) so it makes perfect sense to me that one could go to a highly ranked program in a “lesser known” or lower ranked school and emerge with an outstanding education and access to grad school.</p>

<p>I think the question needs to be rephrased because of this…</p>

<p>Many lower tier schools are “known” to be very strong in certain areas, but they don’t get the USNEW ranking attention. </p>

<p>So, I think a better way to ask this is… Which lower ranked schools have a strong reputation in one or more fields (and what are those fields).</p>

<p>For example…</p>

<p>UAHuntsville - ranked 3rd tier, but has an excellent engineering dept because the campus is located within Cummings Research Park (the second largest research park in the US - many, many high tech and Fortune 500 companies are there) Not only is the engineering dept very strong, but the students have many internship and co-op opportunities.</p>

<p>For some students, these programs can be very, very good. If you are considering an engineering program in a specific field of engineering, for instance, you might find that especially after freshman year, your student will be taking strong upper level courses with a small cohort, with few electives outside of this area. Employers who are familiar with the school will hire for co-ops and internships from this program, and these experiences will form a basis for subsequent job offers. Professors will also tend to have contacts with good graduate programs and should be able to write effective recommendations.</p>

<p>OTOH, if your student is not absolutely sure of their major, or wants to double major, or expects to take many, many classes outside of their major, these programs might not be the best option. Ditto if the social atmosphere on campus seems oppressive. One of my children turned down a top-ranked program at a state school for these reasons and is now very happy at a far more expensive option. We are glad we were able to provide this option as well.</p>

<p>A manager in my building works on a very high-tech project and mainly recruits from three schools and mostly from one in particular. These are publics that most aren’t familiar with but they have particular graduate/doctorate programs that are exactly what he needs and it is hard to find people with this background.</p>

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<p>I completely agree. </p>

<p>I got my undergrad degree from what most people consider to be a local, commuter-type college. But at the time (the industry has changed some in 30 years) it had a top ranked program, VERY well-respected by industry. Our graduates were frequently hired over those from the “name” school across town. And we got lots of transfers (at undergrad and grad level) from that “name” school when the students realized how good our program was!</p>

<p>The problem with trying to get into a top ranking program at an average schools is that many times these programs are VERY hard to get into. For example, Ringling College of Art isn’t anything special EXECPT for their animation program,which is top ranked and very difficult to get into.</p>

<p>My daughter goes to the University of Cincinnati ,which, overall, is fairly easy to get into. However, they have some top ranked programs in music, musical theater and voice, design, art, architecture, law, medicine and pharmacy, all of which are very hard to get into.For example, they get 750 applicants for their musical theater program yet have only 25 slots. </p>

<p>Cincinnati also has some very well regarded programs that are also not that difficult to get into such as business and engineering, forensic studies and education. These latter programs are considered quite good and yet not as difficult for entrance as those noted above.</p>

<p>I think those kind of programs are a true hidden value.</p>

<p>My son is interested engineering major. How do we search these programs?</p>

<p>Dukect -
Is there a particular type of engineering he is interested in? That might help narrow it down.</p>

<p>Psi, I don’t know your child’s field, but I fully understand this issue. I have a child who pursued musical theater in college (recently graduated). Many of the top programs in her field are located in less selective universities. In fact, the general public would have no idea how HIGHLY competitive these programs are to get into when they hear the name of the college. For instance, there are well regarded programs in musical theater in such schools as University of Cincinnati, Syracuse, Ithaca, Penn State, Oklahoma City University, Elon University, Florida State University, and many others I won’t bother to list. The acceptance rate into these programs ranges from 2% to 9%. I recall, for example, when my kid (a very good student) applied to the BFA in MT program at Penn State, friends would say, “of course she can get into Penn State!” with no clue that PSU accepts 5% into this program (she did get in but the odds were very slim). </p>

<p>The thing is, while the name of the college may not be top tier per se, the specialized programs may be the cream of the field. And the issue then is that employers in the field certainly know and think well of these college programs, even if a lay person has no clue. For example, the MT program at Cincinatti is one of the tops in the country and any casting person in NYC knows that, even if the university itself is not a top tier one. For a MT applicant, he/she must go where the programs are located. </p>

<p>As far as my own kid, her ideal MT program would be located in a more selective university setting as she preferred a more challenging academic environment, even though liberal arts was a smaller percentage of her total coursework. Thus her favorite programs in MT were the ones located at NYU and UMichigan, which both are top MT programs, and are two of the few located in more selective universities. She landed at NYU/Tisch and loved it and it fit her perfectly. However, she was willing to apply and consider other top MT programs that were not all located in more selective universities because that’s the name of the game in her field and going to a great program in her field is more important than the total university. The program is chosen primarily and the university is a secondary consideration. She did prefer a more selective university but could not limit her college list in that way as the majority of BFA programs in MT are not located in very selective universities. Some highly selective MT programs are located in more selective colleges than others (for example, UMiami, Elon, Emerson, UMich, NYU have excellent BFA in MT programs and are in more selective settings than the selective BFA in MT programs at Pace, Ithaca, Oklahoma City, Marymount Manhattan, University of Hartford, Otterbein, Baldwin-Wallace, U of Cincinatti). </p>

<p>So, if your son is looking to enter a specialized degree program, I would first consider the best programs in his field and then which universities they are located within. That can matter to some (like my D who is a very goods student academically and cares about that aspect), but one has to be open to the fact that often top programs in a specialized field may NOT be located in very selective universities even if the program itself is highly selective. The career field will regard graduates from such programs very well, and that matters more than the general public’s knowledge of that university.</p>

<p>Thanks to all- your posts were very helpful and touched on issues I was most concerned about. One is the overall quality of classes and instructors outside of classes in S’s major. The other (and possibly more important) concern is what the social atmosphere is like outside of his program. As taxguy alluded to, highly ranked programs within less selective schools can have much higher standards for admission compared with the rest of the student body. I guess the answer to both of these questions, in part, is that it depends on the school!</p>

<p>I should mention that my S is much less concerned about these issues than I am. He is very focused on his intended major and what each college has to offer in that area. However, I do want him to choose his school with eyes wide open. The discussion of the pros and cons in this thread has been very helpful, so thanks everyone!</p>

<p>Psi = can you tell us what major he is interested in? Then maybe we can give more specific advice.</p>

<p>Sure, it’s landscape architecture. So far he has been accepted at LSU and Kansas State- #2 and #3 programs in that field. Great programs in each school</p>

<p>I know there is an architecture forum but there seems to be less interest in landscape architecture than architecture, which is why I decided to post a more general question in this forum. I assumed that there may be parallels with other majors, for example, engineering and MT, as have been mentioned in this thread.</p>

<p>Grcxx3, my son is interested in electrol eng. or computer eng.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

<p>I’ve heard wonderful things about the LSU program!</p>

<p>LSU really is a great school. The “problem” is that is has such a party-school rep that everything else gets overshadowed. But it has an excellent reputation in the oil industry for it’s engineering and geology programs.</p>

<p>I actually have a good friend whose daughter is in her 2nd (or maybe 3rd) year of Landscape Arch at LSU. If you want to PM me - I will be happy to forward your info to her.</p>

<p>Uh - she’s in Rome right now with her DH - so it might be a few days before she gets back to you!!!</p>

<p>Dukect - let me think about that a little and get back to you.</p>

<p>Grcxx3 I will take you up on your offer to PM. LSU’s LA program is very impressive (we have toured and interviewed) and my main concern is what you raised, its reputation as a party school, lower USNWR rankings, etc. ON the other hand, S has been accepted there with a likely generous scholarship offer which is very attractive. We could afford to send him to a HYPSM or equivalent… but they don’t have the right program!! So, we do wonder whehter S is “shortchanging” himself by focusing more on the program than the overall university. BTW, he has applied to other publics that are more highly ranked in USNWR… it is just that two of the highest ranked programs (LSU and KSU) are ones he has already been accepted into. </p>

<p>Both H and I went to one of the so-called public Ivy’s so this post is at least partly due to our own personal bias on choice of schools. As I mentioned earlier, it has been extremely helpful to hear the various pros and cons voiced earlier- thank goodness for CC!</p>

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<p>Been there, done that! DH went to George Wash and Duke! As I mentioned, I went to a local, commuter-college with a fabulous program in my major! So I completely get your “bias!” For me…many evenings floating in the pool with multiple bottles of wine got DH to re-think things!!!</p>