<p>mom2collegekids nailed it.</p>
<p>Kids (and even some adults) tend towards magical thinking. Parents (usually) live in the real world where life happens, two can’t live as cheaply as one, children need asthma inhalers that cost $125 a month, and jobs are not necessarily as easy to come by as some might imagine.</p>
<p>^^^^^^^^^</p>
<p>Thats why parents need to step up and help their children afford college!!! Of course, financial issues vary from family to family…But i laugh at friends who say they can’t or won’t help pay, yet dine out twice a week, drive luxury cars,play rounds of golf at the local private CC…</p>
<p>small debt vs big debt is ALL relative…If you make 50k per year,25k debt is huge, if you make 300k,it is not significant</p>
<p>I agree with the way this thread is tending. Sometimes the value of a school like Harvey Mudd can not be measured in concrete terms like future jobs or salaries. Sometimes it is just the right place go someone to be. But I can be impractical.</p>
<p>Some parents simply can’t afford the cost of a school like Harvey Mudd, then there is no decision. Some parents might be able to afford it but at great sacrifice and I think the OPs parents might be in this camp. Among this second group of parents some will choose the more financially conservative route and opt for a more affordable option. Some will decide that it is really important to them that their kid to go to a school like Harvey Mudd and they will really stretch themselves. There is no right or wrong answer here, just individual decisions.</p>
<p>Just trying to lend some support to the OP in case her parents are on board for Harvey Mudd as much as she is. I agree with what everyone has posted. I can be very guilty of magical thinking.</p>
<p>“…Thats why parents need to step up and help their children afford college!!! Of course, financial issues vary from family to family…But i laugh at friends who say they can’t or won’t help pay, yet dine out twice a week, drive luxury cars,play rounds of golf at the local private CC…”</p>
<pre><code> ----posted by qdogpa
</code></pre>
<p>qdogpa,</p>
<p>Now I understand your posts. If this describes your typical social circle, you are clearly in the minority of parents who have an ability to help their kids significantly, as in, you clearly have the bucks to do it. There are SO many factors in life that affect a parent’s ability to help their kids in a big way, whether it is illness or disability in a family, parents who are older and nearing retirement, other kids who need to go to college, single parent households, a deceased parent, former periods of job loss, etc. </p>
<p>Yes of course, we should help our kids as best we can. But please refrain from the annoying soapbox position you take of strongly implying that private is always better, and that parents are flawed if they don’t mortgage the house three times over to make it happen for their kids. Private isn’t always better. And often, it isn’t better at all. Because private school is something you can afford, you take that position repeatedly throughout this thread.</p>
<p>Ultimately, a bright kid who works hard will do well anywhere he or she chooses to go. And there is a very strong point to be made by expecting a child to “own” their education. Those children who are constantly bestowed upon by affluent parents typically have little appreciation for the value of the things provided to them. They grow up feeling entitled, and cannot appreciate what it means to work for things in life. Personally, I’d rather see my child learning and functioning in a real-life quality public institution of higher learning than in a private enclave, and that is said from experiencing both sides of the aisle.</p>
<p>That you find yourself in a comfy position vis a vis the funding of your child’s education is all well and good for you. It is not a position, however, that most parents enjoy.</p>
<p>Davematthewsxvii</p>
<p>I truly feel certain that once you settle in there you will be happy. If by some small chance you are not, transfer options are numerous. I recently saw a link on this site to an article in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette about schools seeking transfer students. I also heard a piece on NPR a long time ago that included this startling information-- that Columbia loved Community College students. Apparently those who transfer in have a reputation for being very hard working. I tell my 16 year old not to stress so much, that any decisions she makes can be reworked if needed.</p>
<p>Thank You speaks the truth, you sum up my position in a much more eloquent and coherent manner than I ever could.</p>
<p>On the issue of whether degrees from top-tier schools result in higher salaries, there’s actually been an interesting study done on that. The answer is Yes, but…</p>
<p>The study looked at graduates of several of the Ivies, and graduates who been accepted at the Ivies, but for whatever reason, had ended up going to a lower-tier school. Salaries between those two groups were virtually the same. Conclusion: The kind of student who has the drive or ability to apply to, and be accepted by, a top-tier school carries those same attributes wherever he/she goes. So the relationship between a high salary and a top-tier school is correlational. The causal factor is inside the student.</p>
<p>Well, I have some surprising news… In September when my parents were against me wanting to go to HMC, because I could receive a plenty good state education at a UC, and I was telling my parents no matter what I was going to take out 100k of loans and that I was going to HMC.</p>
<p>Now that I told my mom I don’t think I should go to HMC even if it is my dream because I don’t want to screw over my adult life, and that 80k is just way too much debt when that’s going to be my approximate starting salary, the tables have turned! She’s desperately insisting that I go to Harvey Mudd!! This was a big shock to me… Now she even said, depending on how her business goes, and if I am above average at HMC, the last two years both my parents would be willing to give me an additional 5k a year… that cuts 20k off my debt plus interest!!</p>
<p>Speakthetruth: That is basically where my parents are coming form I think. My mom is pretty well off, but she is headed toward retirement, and has worked her butt of owning her own business. She wants to help me as best as she can, but she’s not going to kill herself over it, which is completely understandable. At first when she told me she’d only give me 10k a year (which is what she’d pay at UCI), I thought she just didn’t want to sacrifice her lifestyle. But now that the tables are turned, and I’m thinking more wisely about my future financial situation, she’s insisting that I follow my dream. I think all along she’s just been trying to teach me financial responsibility.</p>
<p>Given, my mom has a lot of debt with her business. She told me as an example that she took out 350k for her business at the beginning, and that it turned out great. When she told me that I told her I thought that would have been an incredibly stupid decision that I would have never done, because I could have ended up bankrupt, unemployed, and have my credit completely damaged. But she says now that I have to take more risks. I told her that may be something she would do, but I told her I will not be making the same income she does as a doctor as an engineer, and I simply can’t afford an extreme amount of debt.</p>
<p>Right now with my parents contributing an extra 20k over the last two years, I’m looking more around $56k. My mom wants to have a phone conference with me and my dad when he gets back into the country (he’s presenting at a conference in Europe at the moment). Hopefully things will work out. HOWEVER, I am still weary- like I said, my parents will contribute the extra 20k on the condition that I’m in the top half of my class. What if I don’t end up being in the top half of the class even if I work my butt off?? Is this a risk I should take? I know Harvey Mudd is an extremely hard school…</p>
<p>I’m still going to contact HMC’s finaid office after my mom gets her IDOC in. Like I said, when I was in a meeting with them they seemed to be against having their students carrying great debt. Their average indebtness is around 17k. They said that the student carrying the most debt from last years graduating class was around 30k. Hopefully if I explain my situation to them (with adequate data), they’ll be willing to help me find a solution. I don’t know if they would be willing to give me $5k in gift aid a year (Which would be awesome), but if not hopefully they can offer some kind of plan that would make this all work out better so I’ll be closer to 40k in debt.</p>
<p>One last note: Yes, a big attraction of going to a top tier school is the job opportunities and grad school opportunities it practically insures. That’s thats the practical aspect. But I also believe there is some value, although not numerical, to the kind of atmosphere provide by such a school as HMC. I could go into lengthy detail about why I love the school, but to simply but it: The quirky dorky students, the dorky and extremely caring and accommodating professors, the small town/ small campus… it’s everything I want in a college. Call me naive, but even though a set number can’t be put on what that’s worth, I definitely think that’s worth something.</p>
<p>^^^I’m not sure about whether it makes sense to go into debt or not for that quirky experience, but for the people on this thread who don’t know as much about HMC, I just wanted to emphasize how amazing HMC is for getting kids into grad school. My DH was an above average student in the Physics department at Mudd and was extremely well prepared for grad school…he started at UIUC and picked up a masters in a year and then moved back to CA and finished up his PhD at Caltech. He actually did research at UCI while in undergrad (and got into their PhD program too with some massive support) and while he liked the group he worked with at UCI, he said there was no comparison b/t their Physics department and the department at Mudd. </p>
<p>I’m not sure it should be worth you taking on a lot of debt, but there is a significant difference in the quality of the students at HMC vs. UCI and while that will make it tougher for you to get great grades, your education will be all the richer for being pushed by your peers at a place like Mudd.</p>
<p>I didn’t read every message in this thread, so I apologize if someone else already made this point. </p>
<p>I’m an Engineering Manager, have hired many engineers over the years. I’ve not seen a strong correlation between prestige of University and quality of Engineer. I hire the person, I don’t hire the University they attended. I believe a good engineer can come form just about any decent school, it’s what’s within the person that determines their merit, not the school they went to. I’ve had Stanford grads that were terrible employees (and good ones), and I’ve had great Engineers with a State school education.</p>
<p>YOU will determine how good an engineer you’ll will become, not your school. Save the money, go to UCI, it’s really a no-brainer.</p>
<p>Yes, old cmcalum, I think we all agree on plenty on this thread. There is such a thing as too much debt and Harvay Mudd is an amazing opportunity.</p>
<p>That was an excellent post SpeaksTheTruth, although I certainly wasn’t upset myself by the posts by qdogpa. She has a point, there are parents who live rather well and don’t do as well as they could by their kids when it comes to their education. Not all parents, just some, and you did a really good job of explaining what other circumstances could be involved.</p>
<p>I think what I cued in on early was the OP really wants to go to Harvey Mudd and her family might have the means for this to be realistic. I’m not saying this should be their goal but if they are as enthusiastic as their daughter is it sounds maybe this is a dream that could come true.</p>
<p>It’s up to them, there is no right or wrong here.</p>
<p>
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<p>why not? are you an international student? If you are a U.S. citizen and you complete the FAFSA, you are able to take out the Stafford loans. However, the maximum Stafford for a freshman is $5500.</p>
<p>If you are getting a technical degree then 100K in debt is absolutely not worth it. That much debt is only worth it if you want to go finance and the debt free school can not get you there.</p>
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<p>Thanks for the encouragement! It’s actually extremely difficult to transfer between 0-6 pharmacy programs (which is what I’m going for)…some schools don’t even allow it, but I understand what you’re trying to say. I’m treating pharmacy as sort of a “premed” curriculum. Let’s say I don’t get into med school though, I’ll always have a solid career as a pharmacist for backup…and to be honest, who knows what I’ll want to do in six years. At BC I would have done standard premed.</p>
<p>Speaksthetruth, re-read my posts, as i say every parent should afford each child what they can AFFORD, be it a CC,State school ,private ,or Ivy…I have a probelm with those who complain ,yet have the resources to do otherwise…We can do such,though with constraints on our month to month budget…I can assure you those who go to top schools don’t regret it,but those who go to state or CC don 't either</p>
<p>Speaks the truth, i need to say you really need to READ what i reply to, as i said:</p>
<p>" As i said above, pay for the best education you can afford(even if it hurts,lol)…If you can only afford a state school, that’s what you need to do…"</p>
<p>There is no Holier then thou comments,i believe that parents need to provide the BEST they can, and frequent posts are obvious ,they won’t…If the best you can do is a CC, that is GREAT…But if you are worrying about filling your yacht with diesel fuel, and won’t help your child ,brilliant as they may be,in pursuing an education you can AFFORD, shame on you</p>
<p>I think parents are not required to cover a child’s college education. If they can and want to that is fine, but I don’t think it is a sign of bad parenting to let a child take care of their own college expenses. </p>
<p>Some parents are too quick to fork over a lot of money for their child’s college education, even if it means jeopardizing retirement savings or having an occasional get-a-way to keep the sanity. Personally, I admire children who strive to cover their own college expenses even if it means joining the military or getting a job and going to school part-time. I also think it is a better reflection on the parents when a child is determined to make their own sacrifices to get an education rather than expecting the parents to cough up the money.</p>
<p>^^^
That is EXACTLY what i refer.Selfish parents who only care about their reirement then their childrens’s education!..Pay for what you can afford, but DON’T “Cheap out” when you can afford a better education for your child…</p>
<p>Quote from Shawshank Redemption</p>
<p>“get busy living or get busy dieing”</p>
<p>Provide the best you can or your kids!!!</p>
<p>I just wanted to say thank you so much for starting this thread!! I’m in almost the exact same position - good in-state school (Chapel Hill) versus awesome out-of-state, private school (Northwestern), thinking about graduate school, parents are “upper middle class” aka “get NO money from ANYONE”.</p>
<p>It’s weird how similar the circumstance are but I’ve been reading the thread through and found it EXTREMELY helpful 
Thanks so much. And remember, you’re not alone!</p>
<p>Debt can be crushing in this type of economy or if it takes longer than you expect to find the job you want. When the bills start rolling in on the payments, you may be forced to take any job just to pay the bills. I came across this article posted somewhere on CC, even though it’s 2 years old, the comments section is quite enlightening about the ball and chain of college debt. It shows just how fragile all your best laid plans can go awry with the many twist and turns of life:</p>
<p>[Student</a> loan fugitives - CNNMoney.com Talkback](<a href=“http://cnnmoneytalkback.blogs.cnnmoney.cnn.com/2008/10/23/student-loan-fugitives/]Student”>http://cnnmoneytalkback.blogs.cnnmoney.cnn.com/2008/10/23/student-loan-fugitives/)</p>
<p>There are some things to be said for learning to swim with in a large ocean of a public university as opposed to a private. In this recovering economy I would be very wary about taking on any debt at the undergrad level.</p>