top tier school vs. second tier school for med school prep

Loans, loans, loans for med school. The avg is now what 200-300K debt? It still makes sense vs the parents paying the whole $550K as mom2collegekids said. I do hear some physician parents say that they want to free their kids from the overbearing burden of med school loans after residency, which hindered some of them in their adult lives. But I support the young one paying the med school bill. Lifetime earnings will still be above average and hopefully the experience will temper the “young doc” experience of spending too much of their earnings early career (and getting used to a lifestyle that is not “healthy”).

Having said that, depending on specialty and where one works, it can be a long, long process of finally paying that loan back. Family med, Peds and some IM just don’t pay as well and working in a metro area has financial drawbacks vs working in more remote places.

Perhaps that may be why primary care physicians seem to be more commonly immigrants from countries where their medical schools are much less expensive to the students. Most graduates of most US medical schools may not think that they are able to afford to go into primary care due to their medical school student loan debt burdens.

<<<
Perhaps that may be why primary care physicians seem to be more commonly immigrants from countries where their medical schools are much less expensive to the students. Most graduates of most US medical schools may not think that they are able to afford to go into primary care due to their medical school student loan debt burdens.
<<<

There’s some truth to that, but not completely. Yes, US med students have a lot of debt so they want/need better paying specialties. Yes, many IMGs have less or no debt so they can afford to go into the lower paying primary care paths.

However, there is also the issue that IMGs have a MUCH harder time getting interviews/matching into the more competitive specialties. So, even if an IMG had his/her heart set on derm, neurosurgery, etc, they likely have had to be pragmatic and choose a primary care specialty that has thousands of residency positions, including ones at lesser known places who almost have to take IMGs to fill their spots.

Of course there are some US Citizen’s with limited choices who’ve chosen to go abroad for med school (the caribbean for example). They also will typically have very high debt but still mostly have to choose a primary care route also due to the bias residency programs have towards US educated doctors.

<<<
But I support the young one paying the med school bill. Lifetime earnings will still be above average and hopefully the experience will temper the “young doc” experience of spending too much of their earnings early career (and getting used to a lifestyle that is not “healthy”).
<<<

@chippedtoof

Again, I understand that thinking, but I think that overlooks situations where a newly-minted doctor is facing many years after med school (internship, residency, fellowship) of making modest salaries while making big loan payments while ALSO having to live in a high rent areas…and many/most residency programs are in high rent areas. When you’re only earning $65k per year and your rent is $3k per month, then also making $2k per month loan payments while being able to put food on the table can be impossible, which is why many new docs have to put their loans on hold, further growing them…and soon a $250k debt is $350k+

What I find shocking is when I see some parents here say that they’ll only pay for undergrad and not help with med school…even if their child has saved them money by attending a less expensive school. I clearly remember a mom posting that her stubborn husband had such a mindset that he’d be willing to pay $200k for undergrad, but he wouldn’t pay $100k for undergrad and $100k for med school. Such rigid thinking is bizarre and, well, stupid.

My son is pre-vet so similar. They key is to keep your costs down, go where your D can get high grades, and be happy!

We couldn’t wait until after he was accepted to visit. Since he wanted to go OOS and everything was far away and his school only allowed 3 excused absences a year for college visits. He ended up visiting everything before he applied. He only knocked one off his list from the visits. Good luck!

northwesty wrote:
If you get tapped out for undergrad but your kid does get into med school, you can always opt for having the military pay for med school.

Every classmate I asked about this regretted it. Unless you are super confident you want to become a low paying specialist (ie. pediatrics, psychiatry) or have a desire to be career military, you are better off with loans. Not many incoming medical students truly seek residency in what they imagined as an incoming medical student and how could they when they have hardly been exposed to medicine. Classmates that thought they would go into their preferred medical residency immediately and pay back their obligation as a specialist were disappointed to find out the military had the right and did exercise its option to make you a general medical officer on a base in Missisippi doing pap smears and well child care while your goals of training in critical care medicine or surgery were put on hold. The pay differential between 3-4 years working as a radiologist, anesthesiologist or surgeon compared to a military GMO pays off a lot of loans and then some.

I am in the small minority here who thinks I got a lot more value out of attending an elite college when I could have taken merit money and had a lower total education cost by choosing a school where I was standard deviations above my classmates. Those costs are trivial compared to the earnings over a 40 year career in medicine especially if you are in an above average field compensation-wise. I also drive a 14 year old car worth less than those driven by my hourly employees so I respect that everyone’s priorities differ. For me, I would rather fund an expensive education where my kids are challenged by perhaps more accomplished peers than drop them an additional $300K inheritance when I’m gone. YMMV.

I have a female friend that was a military doctor for a while. She entered the military in the slot she could where she could go on to medical school under Army benefits. She was a high stat student. She was in family medicine with the Army. She fulfilled her obligation; eventually got into ER medicine - all while being married, and had her 4th child while working for the Army. She had her first in residency.

One has to be ‘compatible’ with military thinking.

I worked for a doctor that was with the Navy and loved it; he gave up military for his MD wife/family - the ship tours of duty were too difficult for that family situation. His brother was also in the Navy - and he remained career Navy. Both very brilliant guys.

I am not a big fan of pushing elite colleges for the large majority of students (even very high stat) because they serve a very small number of students - and honestly IMHO one gets exposed to a larger range of students at a strong flagship (which has a significant proportion of high stat kids). Small regional private schools maybe near a large city may provide more diversified UG total education (social skills, seeing a broader world, etc).

Obviously for the desire to go to medical school, one has to focus on high GPA for UG. But how about enjoying the process and learning many other things during those maturing years?

A classmate of DD1 went to Harvard UG and is in med school now. He scored a perfect ACT and is Hispanic, which were helpful with Harvard admission. A hard worker/was driven with academics.

Changing paradigm with the entire process, and even evaluating various UG programs/Universities.

Womens colleges often give generous merit aid to a kid like your D -and many of them have high a good record with getting ladies into med school

Re: help vs. pay for - Help? Sure, we can probably help. We won’t know by how much until we get there, assuming it happens.

Pay for all of it? We can’t. Not won’t. Can’t, as in can’t afford it. Yes, it’s looking like S’s NMSF status will probably save us more than $100,000 on his undergraduate education, but the reality is that we couldn’t have paid for all of undergrad, either. S is probably saving us closer to $30,000 based on the cost of living at home while attending a CC, then transferring to a nearby UC or Cal State, and possibly still living at home or with an aunt near UCR.

We will be more than happy to re-deploy those funds in some other fashion down the road, but it’s still a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of med school.

<<<<
I am in the small minority here who thinks I got a lot more value out of attending an elite college when I could have taken merit money and had a lower total education cost by choosing a school where I was standard deviations above my classmates. Those costs are trivial compared to the earnings over a 40 year career in medicine especially if you are in an above average field compensation-wise. I also drive a 14 year old car worth less than those driven by my hourly employees so I respect that everyone’s priorities differ.

For me, I would rather fund an expensive education where my kids are challenged by perhaps more accomplished peers
<<<

@YaleGradandDad
I don’t know what things were like at the undergrads you were considering while in high school. However, things have changed at many of the merit scholarship schools that aren’t directionals.

You keep talking as if one’s premed classmates would be “standard deviations” below at these schools. We aren’t talking about premeds attending a school and choosing a major where there would be that sort of difference. My son’s classmates were academic peers. He was a Chem Engineering premed and his classmates were in the ACT 30-36 range.

You’re wrongly assuming that at the merit scholarship schools that we’re talking about, the smart kids are equally spread out amongst the school, so few would be actual classmates in any major. That’s not what happens. The academically strong students are largely concentrated in about 12 majors. At Bama, 40% of the students have an ACT 30+. Those kids will be concentrated in: eng’g, bio, chem, physics, math, finance, English, The Classics, and a few others. If you’re a physician, then very likely your colleagues had scores in that same range.

Because of the way stronger students are concentrated, those students are very much challenged by their classmates. I think you’re talking about directionals that are full of ACT 20 - 26 students, so the ACT 34 student would be a fish out of water.

@mom2collegekids I have close family, friends and their spouses who took extensive loans to pay for their med schools. None started payments during residency, so yes, their debt was on the large side. They’re fine, although them all marrying professionals helped. The numbers work out. What you might be saying is that the bottom line payments from the parents and student will be higher in this case, and that is true.

But perhaps there is a good use for that $100K you used in that example (other children, needy family, etc) not the least of which is the student being understanding enough to let his parents keep it… one never knows what the future holds for the parents finances either. If the $100K is just growing wild in the backyard, yeah, that’s not smart to not pay off the loans and eat the interest.

This is very true. If you understand this fully and go military medicine, it can be really beneficial. If not, it can be the greatest of frustrations.

We have 6 kids. There’s no way we can afford to pay for oldest D to go to med school. She knew that when she decided to pursue medicine. She will have a lot of debt no matter what, and money will be a huge (maybe the biggest) factor in which med school she attends (she’s in the application process now, hoping she has multiple acceptances).

If we could help pay, we would, but we can’t. Being in debt is not going to stop her, but it will limit her opportunities.

<<< @chippedtoof
have close family, friends and their spouses who took extensive loans to pay for their med schools. None started payments during residency, so yes, their debt was on the large side. They’re fine, although them all marrying professionals helped. The numbers work out.


[QUOTE=""]

[/QUOTE]

Are these folks from your generation?

^^ younger sibling+spouse, two friends from childhood, college roommate so yes. Sibling+spouse has only been out a few years.

It’s hard to compare the doctor debt from years ago to doctor debt today. The rising costs of COAs is exceeding inflation. I remember just a few years ago seeing my son’s med school’s tuition was well under $20k per year…now it’s increased by over 50%.

My concern, as @ucbalumnus has mentioned, that future debt levels will be too high for primary care doctors.

True but I’m considering a range of timeframes that includes the recent. (I mentioned my sibling and spouse have only been out a few years. Being that I was intimately involved with their numbers - and helping fund my sibling - I understand your concern; I fully comprehend that people shy away from primary care because of the finances). What I am suggesting is that the numbers, when they get to the other side, allow them to live well. Maybe not a stereotypical doctors life glamorized in the media or tv but well nonetheless. With a little sacrifice in geography or lifestyle or dual income they can live quite well. The cost issue, while real and certainly worse than in the past, is exacerbated by the “have it all” attitude that many physicians fall into after surviving years of excruciating work and delayed gratification.

If you want to live in LA and work for Kaiser SoCal, the numbers don’t look as great as if you learn to love making a life in Durango Colorado (as examples)

I am a believer in visiting schools. This is a HUGE expense so why wouldn’t you visit? Take the time to visit and you won’t be hearing “I want to transfer” this time next year. As for medical school, many kids change their mind Organic Chem is the great equalizer. Also, not everyone wants to be a student into their 30’s. Be sure your child has a plan B. Something else no one has mentioned is medical school application support at the college. My son’s school had specific advisors, but my friend’s DD had a different experience at a small and less ranked school. This school had an advisory board who approved students to apply to med school. I guess they looked at GPA (overall and science prerecs), but not MCAT scores because they had not been taken yet. I had never heard of this, but I imagine it protects the school’s med school yields and cuts down on the teacher recommendations that need to be completed. To me, the school should not have that power. If the student wants to apply, send the transcripts, recommendation packet and let the chips fall where they may.