<p>Well, I guess those dozens of researchers over a 30-year span are all crazy then - or maybe they’re just incompetent and unable to find evidence for the factors that the conventional wisdom is so sure exists.</p>
<p>^^re post 141
I’d like to point out the author is a disgruntled former prof at yale who was not given tenure. That may have affected his view about higher education at Yale and other elite U’s.</p>
<p>Just in case you are unaware, Deresiewicz was denied tenure at Yale. Since almost no one is ever tenured at Yale this is not a slam against him. However, it may color his view of the school. He wrote another interesting article:</p>
<p>annasdad loves Deresiewicz and uses your article to illustrate that Yale doesn’t have any “rigor” - that wasn’t the main point I got from it, but whatever…</p>
<p>Oh my, absweetmarie - that article has been discussed here ad infinitum, and if you think THIS thread has aroused passions …</p>
<p>Let me give you the Cliff’s Notes: Deresiewicz was denied tenure at Yale. Therefore, say the detractors, nothing he says about the place could possibly have any validity at all. However, say those of us not so quick to jump to the ad hominem, when you combine what he says with the evidence (I’m thinking of “Academically Adrift”) that indicates there are students at every institution who just don’t learn much, perhaps he’s on to something.</p>
<p>“Well, I guess those dozens of researchers over a 30-year span are all crazy then - or maybe they’re just incompetent and unable to find evidence for the factors that the conventional wisdom is so sure exists.” </p>
<p>or maybe parents have information coming from sources other than 30 years worth of published studies that they choose to believe instead . All of the wisdom and knowledge accumulated on here on CC over the last 8 years has not been published in a paper. That doesn’t make it any less valid. It just means all of us who contributed wont get “first author” credit in some journal .</p>
<p>Well, color me green. I thought I’d unearthed something new! Well, it was new to me and I found the article thought-provoking. Dereciewicz’s back story is interesting. It doesn’t invalidate the content of the article.</p>
<p>In any case, Deresiewicz’s arguments are a darned sight more cogent than analogies likening colleges/universities to cars or airplane rides or types of cuisine.</p>
<p>If you honestly see no difference in opportunities available at the different schools for someone interested in art history, including the possibility of an impact on admissions to PhD programs, this isn’t worth my time.</p>
<p>Whether elite schools are too expensive for what they offer, whether they are too pre-professional and/or perpetuate a class system is a completely different discussion than whether they offer more academically.</p>
<p>Yes, I’m sure the “wisdom and knowledge” from eight years of anonymous postings on an Internet forum are much more valid that 30 years of accumulated, juried research.</p>
<p>Does that invalidate the content of the article? Have you read it?
I wrote:
“That MAY have affected his view about higher education at Yale and other elite U’s.”
yes I have read it a long time ago. And I did not say it DID invalidate the content. I used the word may.
and if you had been paying attention when he was denied tenure you would have read lots of “reports” of what a huge issue this was a Yale, as the author was at that time very well known .
since you love doing research so much you can look it up.</p>
<p>Agree they are different discussions. And the evidence for the academic discussion clearly shows that a motivate student can get an equally high quality education at almost any college or university. Why is that so hard to swallow?</p>
<p>Actually as to Art History, where you get your degree matters a ton. Much more than where you get your pre-med degree. Akin to whether you get your musical degree from Juilliard, Harvard/Berkley or a local state. But what is kind of ironic in terms of Art History is that on par with Yale Williams NYU Harvard is Hunter, part of the CUNY system. After that, none matter.</p>
<p>The wisdom and knowledge of hundreds of parents whose kids have been accepted or not accepted at hundreds of colleges over an 8 year time frame? You bet it is more valid than a paper published by some Post doc or asst prof in order to “impress” someone higher up in academia so they can get a job or tenure! I’d say its akin to a nationwide Navience system.</p>
<p>But you can go ahead and continue to be impressed by published papers that match your opinion all you want!</p>
<p>No, that’s not what I said. What I said was “the evidence for the academic discussion clearly shows that a motivate student can get an equally high quality education at almost any college or university.”</p>
<p>Sorry, menloparkmom, I changed the post with the “have you read it?” question (and I apologize if that came off as more of an accusation) because I assumed you probably had read it, after seeing the posts that followed my sharing what I erroneously thought was NEWS. I assume you are speaking to annasdad when you say “since you love doing research so much you can look it up.” If to me: What? I did a Google search! I don’t call that research! Maybe I will look it up and maybe it will color my own view of the article.</p>
<p>Gee, you really make a specialty of ad hominem responses, even for people you don’t know, and even without even considering the arguments they make. No matter - you know better.</p>
<p>One of the hallmarks of the critical thinker is the ability and the willingness to consider evidence that runs counter to dearly held beliefs, and reconsider those beliefs in the light of the new evidence. I must say I don’t see any indication of that in any of your posts.</p>
and uses your article to illustrate that Yale doesn’t have any “rigor” - that wasn’t the main point I got from it, but whatever…</p>
Well, it was new to me and I found the article thought-provoking. Dereciewicz’s back story is interesting. It doesn’t invalidate the content of the article.</p>