Tough (high school) decision

Parents Forum
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<p>Carolyn,</p>

<p>Here are the thoughts of a high school teacher:</p>

<p>1) You and your husband should make the decision. Adults know what is best for their children. Children do not see the big picture as well as their parents.</p>

<p>2) Football is not nearly as important as academics.</p>

<p>3) The commute would drive you all crazy.</p>

<p>4) Interview the principal at the public high school to get a feel for the honors and AP courses. Ask to see a copy of the school's AP report so that you can see how many students took AP tests, and how the kids did on those tests. The reaction that you get when you make this request will speak volumes. If you would like some help in interpreting the report (e.g., you might want to know how the school's students compare with the national averages), feel free to e-mail me.</p>

<p>5) Visit some of those honors and AP classes to observe the quality of education. Plus, try to get an appointment with some of the AP teachers and ask questions about their programs. </p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

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<p>While I think a teenage kid deserves to have some input into the school they attend, I do not agree with letting them make the decision. They just aren't mature enough to consider all the factors.</p>

<p>That said, my son attended catholic schools K-12 while my daughter (two years younger) left catholic school to attend our public high school after grade 8. What works well for one child doesn't always seem to work for another. The teenage years can be difficult for the happiest child, and when you take a kid who feels out of place in the school environment it can be absolutely miserable. You are lucky to have options. We found that a smart kid can get a decent education wherever they go as long as the parents stay involved and explore the alternatives and advocate for the child.</p>

<p>We haven't been totally thrilled with our public school, but all in all it was a good decision for us. She got a decent education, has lots of good choices for college next year, and has blossomed socially. We definately have no regrets.</p>

<p>Keep exploring your options and know that you don't have to make a decision now. The best thing about the public school is that they have to take you when/if ever you decide you want to go.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>Thanks again. Talked with husband and son at length this afternoon and both agreed to keep an open mind and investigate all options. Luckily, we have time to gather our information and make a decision. Son is happy that we are at least open to discussing this and said he will let us make the final decision with his input.</p>

<p>Westerndad, Thank you very much. Those are all excellent suggestions. I know we tried to meet with the old principal when our daughter was looking at high schools and she refused, said she didn't have time. Hopefully the new principal will be more open. The suggestion to visit AP classes is EXCELLENT. We were just thinking about having him shadow a friend, who, of course, is not in any AP classes. They won't have much info. on AP scores as this is just the first year they have offered AP classes at this school. I do, however, need to get the complete list of what will be available. And, yes, football won't be the make or break decision for us, his parents, but I know he will care. Kat, thanks for suggesting that he go check out spring training at the local school - hadn't thought of that.</p>

<p>Marite, Yes, son told me that he would hate to give up Latin. He will be doing a Greek 2 class at CTY this summer. The community colleges don't offer either Latin or Greek but I did a search this afternoon and found SDSU offers both and that it may (may) be possible for him to take some courses there. He has already looked into other summer programs for the Greek for next year so I know that it a possibility.</p>

<p>Sigh. This has just thrown me for a loop but I do think that sometimes you have to change direction in order to get on the right path. Having seen what depression can do to teenagers first hand, I was stunned to see my stoic son so upset about this. Over the next few weeks, we all have to do some solid listening to each other.</p>

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<p>We have had this issue a number of times with our kids. I really don't know what to tell you, Carolyn. When we have made the decision against the wishes of the child, we have paid for it dearly (still paying for it) in that we have had resentful, sullen, stubborn and spoiled kids. When we move S1 out of a prep school he loved, the truth of the matter was that he was not doing well there with a 2.6 average, and enjoying his life of hijinks more than doing the academics. But he was very happy there, content, knew everyone, life was good. We insisted that he move with us and check out the options as he would soon be in college and we really wanted him to consider our home his home for a bit longer and be with the family. He reluctantly agreed. When we looked at schools, he did not get into the local prep schools and he did not want to board which made sense. The choice came down to a catholic boys' school and a public school. The better public schools gatekeep terribly in that area, and his record did not earn him a spot in the AP or honors curriculum. He would have to do a year in the regular curriculum and earn his stripes. So we decided to buy a house in a not so great area, and put the kids all in private schools as that seemed the best choice for not only him but for everyone. He hated the school and wanted to graduate from his old school, and we did say that it was a possibility. Well, he excelled that year. He was an AP stud with a 4.0+, team made it to state championships, accolades up the whazoo. In the mean time, his peers at his old school were continuing down the same path that S was, and were the school jokers at that time, waiting for the king of jokers to come back. We decided that sending him back there to graduate in care of a friend's family was NOT the best choice. He was furious, quit his sport and promptly went on a rampage of destruction of his own future. He calmed down enough to captain another state team, get decent enough grades and get good enough recs, take all AP level courses (nearly, anyways) and graduate, getting into much better schools than his old friends did. But he still feels that we tricked him with the move. And then we moved again so that any bonds he made at his graduating school are gone as we no longer live in the area. Did we do right? Who knows? It was done. </p>

<p>For D, when we moved, we did permit her to stay her senior year with a friend (a sore point with S). But she was a straight A student already moved once for highschool. A second move seemed so unfair and she was just doing so well, and it was mid year. Different circumstances. </p>

<p>Our kids go to school over an hour away for highschool and it is for the birds. I hate it, but it was the best alternative available for them. S3 did not get into any of the private days, and the other schools here just did not fit him as well as this school, and they have no advanced program until junior year at the public school. Everyone is clumped together. A this point I decided that I was too old and tired to learn another system and get involved and went with the rep of an old prep school. S3 will be boarding there next year, as the commute is a killer. Really, Carolyn, for 4 years an hour or more each way really does get tiring. And who knows about them driving. S2 is not permitted to drive for good reason. But I am sure that the school was the absolute best choice for S2 for a number of reasons, and he just could not board there with his hypermania and behaviour, so we put up with the commute. I cannot even conceive of him in any of the local schools here, though S3 would have been a good fit at some. </p>

<p>Unless it looks like your S is college football material, the quality of the program is not a big deal. My son's team is not very good, but the better players have gone on to D-1, top D-3 programs, but most of the kids are highschool players only as is my son. The local school would have probably developed his skills better, but I shudder to think of what else may have developed. And this is mainly because of the nature of this child, not because of the environment. For him, a carefully managed and selected environment was essential for him to excell. So all of this so depends on the kid. </p>

<p>Good luck in making the decision. From what you have posted about your S, he seems to be the sort that will be fine either way, which is so wonderful. I do have some that way, but I also have some that have to be carefully managed or trouble brews. Enjoy the flexibility that you and S have, as you make your decision.</p>

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<p>Carolyn,</p>

<p>You are a very thoughtful parent and also extremely well informed on educational matters. Your son is in good hands!</p>

<p>My main reaction is that a one-hour trip to school and then one-hour back would be the deal-breaker for me. It is one thing for your D, who loves the school and understandably wants to graduate from it. But my philosophy is largely geared to "keeping it simple," and once you have two hours each day taken up by transportation, it really eats into other alternatives. </p>

<p>I have a boy your son's age who is in ninth grade at our local public. We looked into privates last year and decided that the advantages of his being able to go locally were something we didn't want to give up unless we had to. (He occasionally bikes to school or even walks home after track practice in the spring.) His friends are a great group and he is happy with them and where he is. However I admit he is not as academically driven as your son seems to be, and also our high school is one of those intensely academic suburban ones that offers all APs available. If anything, we were looking for a more personal, less intensely competitive place for our boy.</p>

<p>But for the very reason that your son is SO intrinsically motivated, I think he is likely to be fine wherever he goes. He will seek his own challenges - perhaps can arrange some independent study classes where he works with a mentor. I know that is done at our high school for kids who finish all the AP math and science early. I believe SoozieVt's daughters did something like this as well.</p>

<p>There are even Latin programs designed to be used by homeschoolers that he could use to do Latin independent study. (I love Latin too and that is the language my son takes.) Although Latin is not offered by your local high school, it is possible that there is a language teacher there who did study Latin, as many language teachers have more than one language in their backgrounds.</p>

<p>He can do a lot with an extra two hours a day and I am sure he will.</p>

<p>I do agree that this should be a parental decision, but with good consideration of son's input. It seems you are approaching this very conscientiously. I am confident you will decide well.</p>

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<p>Carolyn:</p>

<p>Sometimes a new school can be very receptive and flexible. I would suggest talking to the principal and GC of the public school to find out whether it would be okay for your S to either take Latin or Greek at SDSU either for college credit (it would depend on SDSU) or for high school credit, provided the instructor were willing to let your S audit and provide a grade (this is pretty much at the discretion of the individual instructor). My S's grades for the college courses he audited were converted into Pass/Fail on his high school transcript. Besides the issue of credit, there's the issue of scheduling. High schools work on different schedules than colleges, which can make things quite difficult. But somehow, my S has managed to take college courses during the day-time for the past two years, with a lot of flexibility on the part of his school, and a lot of work on the part of his GC in particular. April is the time when our school works out students' schedules for the next year and when colleges also try to firm up their catalogs, so the next few weeks should be a good time to contact the SDSU instructors and the high school principal and GC.
It's great your S can take Greek 2 at CTY!</p>

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<p>Carolyn, see what you, your husband, and your son think after reading "What</a> You'll Wish You'd Known" by Paul Graham, which I learned about from another CC thread. </p>

<p>You know I'm a homeschooling parent. I'm pretty hard-line about that, for reasons that go back to my childhood experiences in public school districts in two different states. But I have always said to my son that if he absolutely, positively wants to go to school, I would let him go on one condition: that he first spend a full day there on a visit to observe what really goes on there. The suggestion made in this thread that the visit your son would make MUST include the AP classes makes sense. </p>

<p>Long commutes chew up a lot of reading time unless a child is good at reading in the car. We listen to a lot of Minnesota Public Radio's all-news station and the Minneapolis Public Schools all-jazz station on our drives, but I still find time at home is more productive of learning. Carschooling is very wearying if it is just the same trip over and over.</p>

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<p>Carolyn,</p>

<p>I can't understand why the old principal wouldn't meet with you. That is ridiculous, and it is a very bad signal. I sure hope that the new principal will not only meet with you, but will do so graciously and with enthusiasm. As bad as my principal is, he at least is very willing to meet with parents who are considering sending their children to our school. </p>

<p>Let us know how your visits to AP classes go. I'm real curious. Any AP teacher worth his/her salt would welcome such a visit. </p>

<p>Some questions you might have for AP teachers:</p>

<p>1) How long have they taught this class?
2) How many sections of this class are offered?
3) Have they attended training sessions for this class? (This is a huge issue, for reasons that are far too numerous to discuss right now. Fair disclosure: I am a College Board trainer for AP teachers.)</p>

<p>I would also suggest that you speak with the STUDENTS in these classes. How well do they feel the teacher is preparing them for the AP exam? How focused is the teacher on preparing them for the exam? Again, good AP teachers will welcome this line of questioning. I would LOVE it if parents would ask questions like this of my students (though I cannot think of a single instance when this has occurred).</p>

<p>Geez, Carolyn, I am so impressed by what a fine mother you are. Your son is bound to do just fine no matter where he ends up.</p>

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<p>I am pretty amazed at all the replies that suggest "...let you son make the decision". What are you people thinking anyway - are you totally crazy? This is a 14 or 15 year old boy. Get real. Are you not influenced by the fact that only 10 to 15% of the local HS grads went to a 4-year college? Did you not even read the part about AP courses just starting a the local HS and the fact that there has not heretofore been an emphasis on AP courses at the local HS? Do you not understand the power of peers? Do you not realize you have an important role as parents? I can't believe how superficial some of these responses have been to this very serious question. Carolyn: You need to get a checksheet made with the plus and minus points for each option. How important is the transportation issues for both parents and what options are there? What is this sports thing all about? What exactly are the social issues? How "different" is the local high school and the optional school in terms of SAT/ACT scores and AP courses, what is your son capable of doing based on his performance thus far in school and his performance on standardized tests, is a local CC a goal for him after HS, should the local CC be any issue at all and if yes, how, etc. Sounds like some folks responding to this thread are just babbling and saying that the local HS always trumps all options. Thousands of HS students travel a great distance each day to get a superior education and have for many years. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that these kids suffer in their later life. Could it be that you parents are replying to this post from the perspective of a very selfish parent and not from the perspective of what might be truly best for the child? OK, let's have some feedback!</p>

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<p>I also agree with letting your son drive the decision, as long as you are reasonably comfortable with education he'll get at the public school (possibly supplemented by some courses at a local college). During his 8th grade year, my son began to lobby us heavily to send him to a very small, start-up parochial high school. (His sister graduated from our local public high school, which is excellent and very well respected, and that's where we expected he'd go, too.) I was very negative, but after much evaluation and discussion, we sent him there. It was somewhat scary, and not what I would have chosen, but he was right: he is now a freshman there and absolutely thriving. I think by the time they are high-school aged, assuming kids are relatively well-adjusted and level-headed (and that's what we're trying to raise, after all) parents ought to listen carefully to what kids believe is right for them. I know it's not always easy!</p>

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<p>Westerndad, not only did the old principal refuse to meet with us - or even talk to us on the phone - but we scheduled an appointment with the guidance office...who had the secretary call us on the day of the appointment (after we had kept daughter home from school that morning to attend) and say that the guidance counselors were all "too busy" to spend time with a prospective student and parents. That was a HUGE factor in why we opted for the private school. I do know from the other parents who have kids at this school that the teachers and admin. are very unresponsive to phone calls and emails from parents.</p>

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<p>Carolyn,</p>

<p>You have certainly had to deal rather suddenly with a major dilemma. How to know? How to see into the future without that crystal ball? So much of the high school experience IS SOCIAL, so much of success in adolescence has to do with self esteem. </p>

<p>I think, from what I have learned of your son, he is very self-motivated. Seems unlikely that "peers" would lead him into the local community college as his educational goal. I also feel sure that you have instilled in him the value of further education, and you, of all people, know how the system works. I do worry just a bit about the way the new school does math, and wonder if that would suit your son's learning style? </p>

<p>I work in a school and attended a school where relatively few students go to four-year colleges, which I attribute to the culture of the folks who live in the area. Will your son's friends from earlier years likely go on? I have noted that if there is a culture among males in a school to underachieve, it takes a strong will to overcome it.</p>

<p>Seems to me your son would very likely become a big fish in the new-school-pond, and that can be a very good thing. :)</p>

<p>Just some random thoughts on a Friday. And I surely wish you the very best!</p>

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<p>Carolyn:
My older S had coordinated AP- English and AP-US History and it worked really well. The two teachers were real pros at that. My younger S does not have the same sequence because of scheduling issue, so there is not so much synergy between the two courses.</p>

<p>I am a bit concerned about the computer-based learning. It's not for everyone. My S, for example, did not want to take the CTY Individually Paced Math sequence because he did not want to be in front of a computer so much of the time and enjoys being with others while learning. Others, however, have thrived with EPGY. So this is really a matter of individual style and something for your S to consider. </p>

<p>Another thing. Your S is a very good student. He could take some APs as a 10th grader (as did your D!) and not have to deal with the heterogeneous classes. One kid in our school went to a nationally known prep school for the first two years then returned for junior and senior years because she preferred the social scene in the high school, did not want the commute, and could take APs. She was admitted early to an Ivy.</p>

<p>EDIT: Just saw your post about unresponsive admin and teachers. Ouch. We could not have done without the cooperation of everyone involved in my S's schooling from the principal, dean, GCs to teachers (on some days, S had to leave a class ten minutes early to make it to his college class. The teacher made sure not to hand out assignments at the end of the class).</p>

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<p>Are you sure about that 10-15% figure? (graduates that went on to 4 yr college) That is shockingly low. That stat alone would rule out the local public hs in my mind. We recently were visited by some old friends who drive their D 60 miles (to another state) each way to HS. Dad (retired) drives one way, mom the other. Priorities, I guess.</p>

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<p>Carolyn,</p>

<p>It is a very bad sign when teachers, counselors and administrators are unresponsive. I try to get back to my parents the same day that they contact me. "Too busy" to see you? That is ridiculous. My job is to be there for parents and students. I am so sorry that you had this experience.</p>

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<p>We always take our children's input and opinions when making a decision. We may have to disregard them in terms of doing things their way, but their words and viewpoints are always considered. We had to make a lot of tough decisions regarding moves and schools, and for many of the outcomes, for pragmatic reasons we had to make the choices as they affected so many of us in the family, and we do have to eat and have shelter and money. As for the individual situations, again we listened to all they had to say, and did take it into account, but as a parent we did make the final decision which sometimes did not concur with their take. For colleges, we let the kids choose, though we gave our input. For many other things we let them choose. It's really when the individual experience that the child gave was such that it so negatively affected us as a family that we overrode the decisions, and with the males in the family this happened a lot, as they have been a rough lot. Ultimately, the decision will be the parents' , in this case, Carolyn and her H's , even if the decision is made by the son, in that their decision would have been to permit that route. I don't think there is any "right" decision in that the journey may well be different in either choice and we don't have a crystal ball to see what it may be. Knowing how carefully Carolyn researches and examines every thing, I feel confident that the best decision will be made.</p>

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<p>C:
Sorry. Just saw your post.</p>

<p>Wow. End of freshman year. The similarity in the timing is uncanny. Consider yourself lucky to get those tears. Do you know how many boys simply retreat into sullenness or substances? Plenty.</p>

<p>First, I think shadowing is a great idea. Perhaps the new P could recommend an honors buddy (male) for your S to shadow?</p>

<p>If he still wants to transfer after the shadowing, then put the play in motion. 14 year old boys are so darn inarticulate. You should take a display of tears very very seriously. His instinct to draw long-time friends to his bosom is an excellent instinct. He needs some protection and he knows where to go to get it. His friends. Bully for him. </p>

<p>As for the Greek and advanced classes, well, now you have a bit of spare $$$, right? What about an arrangement where he agrees to go to Cate or Exeter for summer classes in Greek or whatever? Along with an agreement to take AP classes. Along with an agreement to go to a four year college.</p>

<p>That's the most worrisome item--so few students matriculating to 4 year colleges. If I were you, I would accept that he needs his close friends more than he needs a challenging high school and football team, as long as he accepts that he needs supplemental learning--and a 4 year college experience. Wouldn't hurt to put it all in writing.</p>

<p>As long as he can play on the local football team, he will be happy.</p>

<p>Big South Pacific cyber-hug.</p>

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<p>The more information I get, the less sure I am that going to the local high school will be in your S's best interests. I am particularly concerned about the unresponsive teachers and admin. For a high achieving student to thrive in a mediocre school you need teachers and admin willing to be flexible--which means a lot of coordination with parents and student.
But your son is the one who needs to be convinced that the decision that is made is the right one. After all, he will be the one who will be doing the learning. You can lead a horse to water, etc... If he finds out that the teachers, admins are not responsive, then it should give him pause. It will be better than your telling him so. If he finds out that the school is geared to the 85% who are not planning to go to a 4-year college, that, too, will figure in his thinking.
As for the commute, you will be making it for your D anyway, right? Although, if they have different ECs, scheduling rides will be tough.
Ah, that is a real dilemma. Good luck!</p>

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<p>M--Wasn't she talking about the old Principal? Thought the new one was more open??</p>

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<p>Cheers:</p>

<p>The new principal is more open, but Carolyn mentions:
"I do know from the other parents who have kids at this school that the teachers and admin. are very unresponsive to phone calls and emails from parents."
A principal can only establish general policy. If other members of the staff are not cooperative, it can be very hard to get the accommodation that Carolyn's son is likely to need. Let's hope for the best.</p>