<p>seaweed, Many doctors do make mistakes and are never convicted. 18,000 people die every year because they cant pay fees, At least if an engineer rejects his work, no one will die.(constructions and other related professions)</p>
<p>P.S. How will you even know if a doctor made a mistake? 0_o</p>
<p>i think everyone here are answering different questions.</p>
<p>what is harder academically? </p>
<p>for undergraduate education, engineering is harder than biochem, bio, chem, etc. you can't say engineering is harder than pre-med because pre-med is not a major, someone who is pre-med can major in engineering too you know.</p>
<p>when it comes to graduate school, med school is school. masters = engineering is school. phd students take some classes and then they do research. i think thats very different. i think medical school is harder then phd in engineering. sure you are just taking more exams and you don't have to do research, but phd students get PAID (crappy) but they get paid still, doctors pay a lot for medical school.</p>
<p>doctors got more pressure too, they got malpractice fees. if they don't do their job, their patients can die. not just in surgery, like prescribing the wrong medicine and etc. engineers nowadays have more people to check out what they did wrong, recalls are lame though and costly. the problem with engineering ethics is not due to the lack of skill from the engineers. the problem is the BOSSES who wanna make more money by shoving deadlines down engineer's throats and cutting costs on materials.. etc.</p>
<p>in the end: doctors make much more than engineers... and they should. it takes tons of engineers to make a project work, it takes one doctor to save your life. who would you pay more? the doctor who saved your life, or the engineers who made life busier for you but giving you iphone, and all the crazy expensive tech stuff :p</p>
<p>i am majoring in EE btw. :)</p>
<p>Keep in mind the hard work does not end when med school does, it's just the beginning. Doctor's typically work insane hours, and are required residency even after med school is done. I agree that Dr's deserve to make more than most people.
Engineering is very important to society and personally, I believe that engineers should make more money than lawyers do.</p>
<p>
[quote]
seaweed, Many doctors do make mistakes and are never convicted. 18,000 people die every year because they cant pay fees, At least if an engineer rejects his work, no one will die.(constructions and other related professions)</p>
<p>P.S. How will you even know if a doctor made a mistake? 0_o
[/quote]
</p>
<p>these issues are exactly what attorneys are debating about in the courts. </p>
<p>some malpractices never went into the court because the surgeons/hospitals and the patients' families decided to settle for a reconciliation. this should not be uncommon, considering the surgeons and the associated hospital do not want to see their reputation destroyed, and if the families can still get a large sum of compensation, then why bother filing a suit.</p>
<p>even if the case goes into a court, there are certain occasions when the defendants are able to find enough evidence proving the failure is not caused by the surgeon's mistake, even if the family firmly believes it is.</p>
<p>but again, even when exceptions such as these exist, medical doctors are not liability free. nobody can guarantee the patients and their families will be happy to settle for a reconciliation, or that enough evidence will favor the defendant's claims.</p>
<p>lawyers.. ugh, we can start a new thread on them. anyone heard of the lawyer in DC suing a Korean-American family who owned a dry-cleaning business for over $54 million over a pair of lost pants.</p>
<p>^^ Yea, I heard that on the news. Ridiculous...</p>
<p>
[quote]
for undergraduate education, engineering is harder than biochem, bio, chem, etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i would like to point out that whether a major is harder for someone highly depends on the individual.</p>
<p>personally i think engineering is harder, mostly due to the high volume of courses students need to take. however, i did see some students who dropped out from biochem and went on to EE/ME simply because they can't handle the amount of memorization needed in chem and biochem.</p>
<p>therefore, if you are highly proficient in quantitative skills, engineering shouln't be too hard. same for biochem if you are good at synthesizing a large amount of information.</p>
<p>seaweed, that is a valid argument.</p>
<p>but in general, engineering classes are harder then biochem, bio, and etc. the reason is you got to know math, sciences (physics and chem), and engineering concepts. Not to be mean to biochem drop-outs, but I tihnk they lacked motivation to memorize the material, straight-up memorizing is not goo,d they should try to understand the reaction.. such as the ones in organic chem.</p>
<p>In response to hinmanCEO's post about everyone answering different questions: </p>
<p>The problems first of all is defining what you're comparing. Are we talking about doctors vs. licensed engineers? or doctors vs. "engineers." The difficulty in engineering increases significantly if you consider the entire licensing process. Doctors take 8 years to become licensed, but so do engineers. The difference is 4 years of school and 4 years of practice instead of 8 years of schooling.</p>
<p>^That may be, but at least the engineer gets paid during the next 4 years of 'practice', while the doctor has to pay to get those 4 years.</p>
<p>Also, you are leaving out the 3-7 years of residency after med school.</p>
<p>Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of engineers never get licensed, nor do they need to. Licensing is most prevalent in the realm of civil engineering, yet the fact is, most engineers are not CivE's. Most engineers work for product-based companies (i.e. Microsoft, Intel, IBM, HP, ExxonMobil, Dell, Ford, GM, etc.) and hence never need to be licensed. However, you must hold a license to legally practice medicine.</p>
<p>hye345 - that may be true but take into consideration a doctor at age 35 will be making double what an engineer typically would. the 4 years you pay off in med school come back pretty quickly. Im no expert on medical schools but something tells me 7 years is probably the residency for surgeon. Most physicans probably need 1-2 years and then 1-2 more years in the perspective specialty</p>
<p>UriA702: a doctor needs a minimum of 4 years of college, 4 years of med school, and 3 years of residency, while an engineer only needs a bachelor's degree </p>
<p>Lets say that the doctor spends 7 years and $150,000 (which is a very modest figure) for med education. Also, during this time, its fair to say that the doctor wasn't working.</p>
<p>Now, lets say an engineer finishes his bachelor's and goes to work immediately. Lets say he averages $65,000 a year over the first 7 years. That is $455,000. Compare that figure to the $150,000 that the doctor lost.</p>
<p>This means that when both are at age 29, the engineer is $605,000 ahead. </p>
<p>If this figure isn't substantial enough, take note that I left out the following:
[ul]
[<em>]The time value of money.
[</em>]The fact that the doctor's residency might take longer than 3 years.
[<em>]The cost of opening/running a private practice, should the doctor follow this route.
[</em>]The cost of malpractice insurance.
[<em>]The longer hours the doctor has to work.
[</em>]The fact that a physician's pay has been going down over the past 20 years while tuition for med school has gone up, and that this is likely to continue.[/ul]</p>
<p>
[quote]
This means that when both are at age 29, the engineer is $605,000 ahead.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Perhaps, but the lifetime earnings of a MD or JD clearly outweigh that of the lowly engineer with a BS. Current estimates say that those with professional degrees have a lifetime earnings average of $4.4M, compared to only $2.5M for those with a Master's degree (for argument's sake, let's just say that a generic Masters is equivalent to a BS in engineering.) [Source: Educational Attainment in the United States, U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey May 2004.]</p>
<p>And from a supply and demand standpoint, there would be much fewer people looking to become a MD or lawyer if the economics weren't there.</p>
<p>Doctors dont make to much anymore, averages here in the Bronx for a Family Practitioner are 80K a year, Specializations go up fairly high.</p>
<p>My mother wouldn't allow any of my brothers and sisters to become doctors, and now I know why, its not worth it.</p>
<p>hye345 - That is a good point. But keep in mind the social status and networking that comes with MD license. Let alone the lifetime earnings. Both sides have their pros and cons. However, an MD will more than likely live a more comfortable lifestyle, be able to retire young, not have to worry about putting his children through college and graduate school, drive a nicer car, live in a nicer house / apartment.
It all depends on student interests and drive to devote years and years to medical school - it does however pay off very well.</p>
<p>Id rather spend 500K on investments than a medical degree. Ive made close to 8K in the last 23 days, just off the dow</p>
<p>
[quote]
Doctors dont make to much anymore, averages here in the Bronx for a Family Practitioner are 80K a year, Specializations go up fairly high.</p>
<p>My mother wouldn't allow any of my brothers and sisters to become doctors, and now I know why, its not worth it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wow won't allow? Can't ppl become doctors nowdays for the enjoyment of being one rather than as a bankable career?</p>
<p>well my mother didint want any opf us to go to college. She was like go work for the phone company. I mean she wasent really wrong, most of her child hood friends who never went to college retire making around 80k a year and they have full pensions and such, so sometimes college is not the best option. It depends, i saw it as worth it so I went, my brother John didnt and he makes good money now at Con Edison.</p>