<p>I still have a feeling that the admissions office recognized that they were admitting the vast majority of people with the newly required stats, anyway. UVA is ridiculously easy to transfer into - I know some people who got in even after their first years at sh**** schools with GPA's lower than 3.4.</p>
<p>Right. The agreement stipulates that you must have a 3.4, have satisfied all area requirements for the College, and receive your AA/AS prior to transfer. I'm pretty sure that most applicants with these credentials were accepted already, this is just a way of publicizing that fact. People freaking and ripping their hair out over it and screaming, "WHY GOD, WHY" seem to be people who were pretty ignorant of the transfer process before this hit the news.</p>
<p>Probably. Or people who are/were bitter about not getting in. I mean, I'm not a huge fan of transfers (personally, I think UVA's UG body should be half as big as it is), but still, I trust the judgement of the administration. UVA is a fantastically run public school.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I live in Virginia, but I did not apply to UVA since I applied ED to another school. I thought about UVA and I think very highly of the school. I also believe UVA has a great reputation; however, I believe this particular policy does not help that reputation.</p></li>
<li><p>When a state chooses to treat one class of residents in a different manner than another class of residents, it is discriminating. Its just a fact. In this case, the University has set up one admissions process for one class of residents and a different admissions process for another class of residents. </p></li>
<li><p>I didnt say that UVA could not get away with it, but it could be challenged. I understand that states often win under the rational basis test; however, that is not always the case (especially with compelling issues involving individual rights). </p></li>
<li><p>I do think the University owes the taxpayers of Virginia an explanation as to what interest the University has that is so important that it justifies discrimination.</p></li>
<li><p>I have no idea what UVA generally requires of its transfer students; it simply does not matter. For one class of residents the admissions process is one dimensional and guaranteed, and for another class of residents the process is multidimensional and not guaranteed. The question is why, and I think thats a very fair question to ask the University. </p></li>
<li><p>On this board, I only asked the question. The UVA Dean chose to ignore it. I assume the Dean would have addressed the issue if he/she had a reasonable answer.</p></li>
<li><p>You have no idea what else I have or have not done about the issue, so dont make assumptions. </p></li>
<li><p>I did not guarantee that any statement was false.</p></li>
<li><p>I see no reason to blindly agree with every decision the UVA administration makes, even if the school is otherwise well run.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Colleges "discriminate" all the time. They have preferences and make distinctions between character and academic achievement all the time. You may personally take issue with this particular method of preferential treatment, but as it has been said before...transfer students with said qualifications ALREADY had essentially the same benefits. What's the difference now, just because the policy has a name and some signatures? CC students with 3.4 who satisfied all area requirements and graduated with their AA/AS were already essentially guaranteed admittance. WHAT HAS CHANGED? If there's "discrimination" now, there was always discrimination, but no one said anything before.</p>
<p>What's the difference between this policy and policies where students who have higher class rank are given preference? Or that students who were president of their class have preference over students who did not participate in student government? Or that students who play sports are more likely to get in than those who don't, or that students with good recs get in while students with bad recs don't. Some colleges have unofficial cutoff scores, or prefer students coming from one high school or another. If you're under academic probation or get suspended from your high school or college, you can usually just forget about your chances. They like certain kinds of applicants more than others. College admissions are ALL ABOUT DISCRIMINATION. Applicants aren't all one color, aren't treated the exact same way, they are graded and put on different levels and stuck into categories and catered to or snubbed based on their differences.</p>
<p>UVA has issued statement after statement to the public. In news media, on their website, in press releases. This move wasn't done in secret behind closed doors surrounded by secret service agents armed with silencers. UVA has stated again and again why they made this decision. The fact of the matter is that you don't agree with it, and I'm pretty sure that no matter what justifications they gave you'd find fault. You are a naysayer, a negative, pessimistic whiner baby with no substantial cause for being that way. Give me polls, statistics, hell even give me anecdotal evidence for how this policy will or has degraded the system. You don't "blindly" agree with every decision an institution makes when you have faith in it, you give it the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT until other evidence presents itself. Which, in this case, has yet to appear.</p>
<p>If I'm wrong in my assumption that you've done little to nothing to investigate this issue or to make change, then correct my mistake. You tell me what you've done to make sure that the University of Virginia is running smoothly and with great respect to the taxpayers of Virginia. And I'm talking OFFline.</p>
1 Like
<p>quixotic, no one is blindly agreeing with the policies of the administration. But in cases where one group is highly educated, involved and familiar with an issue, and the other isn't, the less informed group should defer to the more informed group. The university is run by myriad managers, attorneys, and other experts who examine these issues from every angle. They know what's legal and what isn't and they have objectives in everything they do. If they choose to "discriminate" by increasing enrollment and accepting more people from community colleges, then so be it. One of the goals of a state university is to serve its residents, and this program will do just that. And until you're in their position, please continue with your pseudo-intellectual polisci 101 rant. I'm sure you know better.</p>
1 Like
<p>Pizzelle:</p>
<p>I would agree that students going through the regular admissions process have their grades, test scores, course load, class rank, extra curricular activities, leadership, community service, etc. evaluated. Presumably the admissions personnel weigh these factors fairly and admit the most qualified individuals from the group. Also, presumably these factors matter and are predictive of a students success at UVA, which is why they are considered in the first place. Of course, the guaranteed admissions program exempts certain students from this evaluation process altogether. Why are all these other factors not relevant if one first attends a community college rather than a four-year institution? </p>
<p>I am not convinced that nothing has changed. For instance, I have never seen a thread on this forum where anyone was advised that their admission as a transfer student was virtually guaranteed if they had a 3.4 GPA and no grade lower than a C. One needs to look no farther than the beginning of this thread for the typical advice. </p>
<p>If nothing has changed, what caused all of the hoopla over the new agreement? Why are you all saying that UVA will increase its class size to accommodate the an increase in transfer students as a result of the new policy?</p>
<p>I never suggested that UVA tried to keep its new agreement secret. I only asked why the University found it necessary to provide certain community college students with a preference in its admissions process. </p>
<p>I have no desire to discuss this with you OFFline.</p>
<p>Cavalier:</p>
<p>Enron also had a lot of attorneys, accountants, experts, etc.; I dont think they always made great decisions. Does UVA teach you to never question anything if the person providing the information is more highly educated or has more expertise than yourself? Must you always defer without an explanation? </p>
<p>No one stated that accepting more community college students and increasing class size was discrimination, rather, the concern lies with the special methodology utilized for achieving that result.</p>
<p>Of course, state universities serve the state; however, Virginia has many state universities for students with different abilities. I believe that state universities best serve their residents by maintaining the appearance of fairness in their admissions process.</p>
<p>Other concerns:</p>
<p>I have a friend who worked hard in high school and wants to go to UVA. He was waitlisted at UVA and admitted to Virginia Tech. If he doesnt get into UVA, he is seriously considering dropping Tech in favor of community college; he thinks it will be a lot easier to get into UVA through the new process. On the other hand, he really doesnt want to stay at home and go to community college. It seems unfair to me that he has to make this choice. It enough people choose community colleges over places like Virginia Tech or JMU for a chance at UVA, what will happen to the standards at these other state schools?</p>
<p>What is the message to new high school students who want to attend UVA? </p>
<p>Hey dont sweat your regular high school courses, just do enough to pass. Dont bother playing sports, joining clubs, running for president, or getting involved in community service projects. Make sure you have a lot of fun during you your first two years of high school. Forget about taking any AP and IB courses. The only time you have to try in high school is when you take DE classes at the community college, and take as many of these classes as possible. Also, load up on these classes during the summers of your junior and senior years leaving English and foreign language until after graduation. Also, forget about the SAT, prep classes, etc. If you have to take the SAT, just show up, fill out your name and immediately turn your test in, your score is irrelevant. Also, forget about SAT subject tests, just a waste of time. Dont waste any time working on college essays, those dont matter either. If the UVA application asks for an essay, just jot down the first few ideas that come to mind, nothing you write will matter in the least. Now if you play you cards right, you will have a guaranteed slot at UVA waiting for you soon after you finish high school; the only difference -- you will enter as a junior rather than a freshman.</p>
<p>Now I ask you, is this the type of student you want at UVA? Is this the profile of the typical UVA student a few years from now? Why should a student do high school the old fashion way, this deal is just too good. What will happen to UVAs academic reputation? How will this policy affect UVAs graduate school placement lots of 20 year-old UVA grads applying to medical schools and law schools. </p>
<p>Cavalier, are you sure UVA will be able to handle the increased enrollment?<br>
Some community colleges are expecting big things:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Virginia's community colleges are poised to experience explosive growth, thanks to the University of Virginia's recent announcement promising admission into its College of Arts and Sciences if students from two-year institutions meet UVa's admission requirements.</p>
<p>UVa's announcement ("UVa guarantees admission to community college students," April 13 news story) places no caps on the number of eligible students who can be admitted to its College of Arts and Sciences. However, it maintains standards by requiring a 3.4 grade point average, a minimum grade of a C in every course and 54 transferable credit hours.</p>
<p>This information certainly sends a blanket invitation to high school students and their parents to consider continuing their education after high school at a community college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If there is explosive growth at the community colleges due to UVAs new policy, perhaps there will explosive growth in the guaranteed admissions program for community college transfers. Perhaps no room will be left for the regular admissions pool, but who cares, they are not guaranteed anything anyway!</p>
<p>First of all, the idea that I would want to discuss this, or any other subject with you offline is absolutely ridiculous. I was asking you to describe for me what things you have done to further this issue that WERE NOT DONE ON THE INTERNET. A request you have yet to fulfill.</p>
<p>The whole point of this is that you're doing nothing but whining and nay saying on a message board. You seem to think you have some insight into how this is a harmful decision but you've yet to back that up with any sort of credible information, while myself and others are deferring to the expertise of those making the decisions. Who are you to think you know better how to run a top tier university or how to utilize taxpayers' dollars? Berkeley has had guaranteed articulation agreements with California's system of community colleges for a while now and has been consistently ranked competitively with UVA, and ranked higher. In fact, the minimum GPA they require is only a 2.4, and 14 credit hours can be pass/fail. What nay saying, speculative argument can you make against that fact? If articulation agreements with community colleges mean the downfall of a university's reputation and quality of education, why has Berkeley remained steadfast in the top tier?</p>
<p>As I said before UVA has released statement after statement, given interview after interview about this matter in various news media outlets, on their website and in press releases. If the information you've been given does not satisfy you then you should probably become a more proactive individual and try to accomplish more than yammering about it on the internet. You seem to be so concerned about how Virginian tax dollars are being spent, and the nobility of it all, but you're not actually doing anything about it. If you find this injustice to be so insufferable then you have an ethical responsibility to DO SOMETHING, and not just sit there typing about it. The moral imperative forbids you from sitting idly by and watching injustice take place, or you are just as guilty as those abusing the system.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
6. On this board, I only asked the question. The UVA Dean chose to ignore it. I assume the Dean would have addressed the issue if he/she had a reasonable answer.
[/QUOTE]
A private message alerted me to this thread. I don't comb the boards, looking for "call outs". Please don't make them. I visit these boards to chime in here and there with a little information. I do not read every thread, especially ones like this. I have other things to do during work hours and don't want to get sucked into a big debate!</p>
<p>Let me begin by saying that I am not a transfer admission specialist and I did not broker the agreements with the Community College system. </p>
<p>VCCS students already applied for transfer admission in good numbers. Some, having read up on area requirements at UVA, took coursework that prepared them for transfer, making them most competitive in the applicant pool. The agreements make sure that all VCCS students are aware of the coursework they need for transfer admission.</p>
<p>You can find a</a> list of schools with similar agreements, as well as their requirements, on the VCCS website. William & Mary and UVA were the last schools to adopt these agreements.</p>
<p>I think top colleges are all "for" discrimination in a sense that they are more likely to accept a student based on his parents' income. This will attract more donations in the future and thus increase the school's funds.</p>
<p>They're also more likely to accept underrepresented minorities, ATHLETES, people from certain regions, etc. In short, quixotic, they can accept whomever they please - and as a state university, UVA is doing its part to serve the citizens of VA. Your concerns are largely unsubstantiated and based on an improbable set of assumptions. So what if enron had experts? There thousands - literally thousands - of well-run corporations, trusts, charities, universities, etc that are well run by experts. UVA is no different. You can't just assume that you know better than these people. But again, you're a high school senior who's taken AP government. You know it all.</p>
<p>Pizzelle:</p>
<p>Berkeley does not guarantee admissions to any community college applicant, period. If they have a 2.4 minimum GPA, it is just that, a minimum. I doubt anyone gets in with that type of GPA, and if they do, they are probably quite amazing in some other respect. Maybe athletes or URMs are accepted with low GPAs, but this is not the norm. </p>
<p>Dean J:</p>
<p>Sorry for the call out. I understand that you dont want to get involved.</p>
<p>My guess is the University did not want the guaranteed admissions policy, but it was forced down their throats in some backroom political deal in which the University had to accept it in exchange for something the University wanted. Just because other Virginia Universities were forced into these arrangements, doesnt make them right. Perhaps the Virginia Legislature needs to take a look at this issue.</p>
<p>Cavalier:</p>
<p>I doubt state universities accept students on the basis of the parents' ability to pay. Private schools, that aren't need blind, engage in this activity. For the last time, the problem here is state action combined with different admissions processes for different classes of state residents.</p>
<p>quixotic, for the last time, you're not taking the entire situation into account and you seem convinced of your own superior ability to see through the CC transfer plan. Why don't you address the separate avenues of admission and support for URM's and athletes? Have you ever looked into that process?</p>
<p>Well, the Supreme Court addressed the URM issue in Bakke, Grutter, and Gratz. </p>
<p>Athletes go through the regular process, nothing is guaranteed; although, I'm quite sure that they get a lot of points in the ec area.</p>
<p>I'm sure the supreme court has addressed AA, but that doesn't stop the admissions office from bending "standards." It also doesn't stop the University from providing support offices for URM's only. Athletes, too, have special support.</p>
<p>Athletes do not go through the regular process. Do you even know any D1 athletes? They tend to get their applications accepted by the coach and then approved formally by the admissions office. The football and basketball players at UVA are, for the most part, idiots. Literal idiots. They have SAT's below 1000, GPA's below 3.0, they're loud, boorish, obnoxious and unintellectual. And it's like that at just about every D1 school. I read an article a while back that pegged the average SAT score of Duke's basketball team at somewhere in the mid 900's.</p>
<p>Athletes only go through the regular process at ivies and D3 schools that don't place much emphasis on athletics.</p>
<p>If Berkeley has stopped offering all guaranteed admission agreements then it must have been within the past year or so, because one of my good friends utilized the GTO (guaranteed transfer option) from a California CC to Berkeley. During that time I do not believe Berkeley's status experienced any sort of change whatsoever, leading one to believe that the GTO didn't cause much, if any, of a shift in the quality of education.</p>
<p>The point is...yet again...that you seem to be nay saying just for the sake of nay saying. Your cries of "DISCRIMINATION AND PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT, CALL 911" in the world of college admissions are a complete joke. College admissions are founded upon discriminating, subjective panels.</p>
<p>
[quote]
NOTE: Because more transfer students apply each year to
our campus than we can admit, Berkeleys selection criteria
exceed the UC eligibility requirements. To be competitive,
you should present an academic profile comprised of strong
grades and preparation for your intended major.
Berkeley admits applicants primarily on the
basis of academic performance and preparation,
as assessed by a review of:
GPA in transferable classes
completion of lower division prerequisite
courses for the intended college and/or
major
grade trends
We also consider:
extracurricular accomplishment
employment
personal qualities such as leadership or motivation, and
potential contribution to the intellectual and cultural vitality
of the campus.
Demonstrated interest in the major is also an important consideration
for all applicants, particularly for applicants to the
Colleges of Chemistry, Engineering, Environmental Design,
Natural Resources, and the Haas School of Business.
We review all information, both academic and personal, in
the context of each students individual circumstances.</p>
<p>Transfer Admission Data for Fall 2005 (Approximate):
Applications: 10,400
Admitted: Fall: 3,000 Spring: 440
Range of GPAs 3.52-3.90
(middle 50 percent of students on a 4.0 scale)</p>
<p>THE PERSONAL STATEMENT FOR
TRANSFER STUDENTS
The prompt asks a series of three questions, all of which you must
answer. Choose any of the three questions to provide a longer, more
in-depth response of about 600 words; the remaining two questions
require short responses (200 words each), for a total of about 1,000
words.
Why is the personal statement so important?
The personal statement is critical because it:
enriches and completes your application
provides the supplemental information that allows admissions staff to
discover and evaluate distinctions among applicants whose academic
records are often very similar
may be used by the Scholarships Offi ce in consideration for an award.
What does Berkeley look for in the Personal Statement?
Berkeley seeks information about:
choices youve made and what youve gained as a result of those
choices
exceptional personal or academic recognition
unusual talent or ability
leadership, service to others
substantial experience with other cultures
participation in an outreach program or internship
your ability to overcome or manage significant challenges
intellectual curiosity
your ability to think analytically and write critically
Also, please let us know if you:
have contended with a serious illness or disability
are the fi rst in your family to attend a college or university, or
have experienced special circumstances that may have affected your
studies.
Tell us how you achieved academic success in spite of these, or any other
obstacles.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I repeat:</p>
<p>If Berkeley has stopped offering all guaranteed admission agreements then it must have been within the past year or so, because one of my good friends utilized the GTO (guaranteed transfer option) from a California CC to Berkeley. During that time I do not believe Berkeley's status experienced any sort of change whatsoever, leading one to believe that the GTO didn't cause much, if any, of a shift in the quality of education.</p>
<p>Pizzelle:</p>
<p>Your post is very misleading. It looks like the Berkeley program you mentioned was instituted for a short time and only offered to students who applied to the UC system and met all of the requirements for regular freshmen admissions. Apparently, due to the state budget crisis, the University of California had to reduce enrollment and thereby reject students it would have ordinarily accepted in the regular admissions process. These, otherwise qualified, students were offered the option of attending community college for two years and then transferring to one of the UC campuses, if they met certain requirements (gpa, taking appropriate courses, etc.) </p>
<p>This program was in no way a blanket offer to every student attending a California community college. </p>
<p>This program was only available to a limited number of students who met all of the requirements for freshman admission to the University of California system</p>
<p>Even if the option was accepted, a student had to maintain certain requirements during his course of study at community college in order to transfer to UC.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Breaking a long-standing pledge to accept all eligible California students, the University of California has rejected 7,600 applicants who normally would have gotten a seat in the fall freshman class.
UC officials sent letters to the rejected students telling them they will be guaranteed admission to a UC campus if they attend a community college for two years. </p>
<p>It is the first time that UC has not fulfilled the promise of the 1960 California Master Plan, which guarantees admission to all students who meet eligibility requirements. </p>
<p>"These are students who have worked very hard and took a rigorous curriculum and were told all through high school that they would be guaranteed a spot at UC,'' said Ilene Abrams, a college adviser at Berkeley High School. "And now at the last minute they were told they were not accepted." </p>
<p>Abrams noted that one of her rejected students has a 3.9 grade point average and a score of 1,210 out of a possible 1,600 on the SAT 1.
"He is a very bright kid, and he is a kid who has worked very hard," Abrams said. "He does not want to go to the community college."
The university's action stems from the state's on-going budget crisis and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's directive that the UC system sharply reduce enrollment this fall and offer rejected students delayed admission after community college. </p>
<p>According to the UC data, those students who were redirected to community college under the "Guaranteed Transfer Option" had an average grade point average of 3.46, compared with a 3.8 average for admitted students.
UC Berkeley's assistant vice chancellor for admissions, Richard Black, said UC owes the rejected students a "profound apology" but that steep state budget cuts forced the university system to choose between cutting enrollment and damaging the educational quality of the system for students who are admitted. </p>
<p>"I hope in the immediate future, next year, we will be able to restore a UC education for all eligible students," he said. "Unfortunately, these are the realities. This is the hand we've been dealt this year."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This program did not open the back door at Berkeley. In contrast, the back door has been swung wide open at UVA.</p>
<p>Please note that the average gpas mentioned in the article apply to the whole UC system and not just to Berkeley. It is pretty safe to assume that those rejected from Berkeley were on the higher end of the gpa range.</p>
<p>And I reiterate: The fact that you are putting THIS MUCH time into researching and discussing this issue...on the internet...but have done nothing about it offline is rather bizarre.</p>
<p>You claim that a grave injustice exists in the state of Virginia, and "omfg I will research and type miniature essays about it because I am so concerned"...but you don't DO ANYTHING. Is this the kind of person you are destined to be in life? Someone who just sits on the sidelines...talking and complaining? I really don't think you care about this issue at all. I think you just like to whine and have nothing better to do with your time. I suggest a hobby, perhaps knitting or scrapbooking?</p>