Transferring into UVA?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Virginia
61

<p>Obviously there are people now who aren't going to be able to capitalize on the transfer system. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens. For the many years in the future all students still have the opportunity.</p>

<p>Your little story is meaningless. There are plenty of people every day that we see on this board and in our lives who 'should' and 'should not' get into UVA, and the opposite happens even with admissions offices. Yeah, sure, student 1 may be smarter or what not, but if he did not take up that opportunity than so be it. He had the choice, and he decided to choose one way while knowing the consequences. There is no 'manipulation' going on here - things like this happen all the time with kids taking tons of easy weighted courses, doing lots of ECs for applications, etc. Plus anyone who blows off high school and then tries to 'manipulate' their way into UVA through this transfer process has to be ready for UVA, or they will just suffer in the end. If they indeed can handle UVA and express desire, whether before or after the normal application process, by going to a CC then I feel they are deserving of a spot. If they go to a four year institution then they can already get whatever degree they want from that institution- they have many more options than a CC student, even with the institution of this program.</p>

<p>W&M is more course intensive. The 3.6 GPA, etc is probably to further prepare people from going from CC to the College.</p>

62

<p><a href="no%20deferred%20enrollment%20juniors%20at%20W&M">quote</a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I meant to say "(no dual enrollment juniors at W&M)"</p>

63

<p>sv3a:</p>

<p>So you are saying Student #2 should be admitted over Student #1. CC trumps all other factors.</p>

64

<p>to say that the value if a UVA degree will drop b/c of this is pretty stupid. so what if these kids didnt do that great in highschool, its just highschool. there are plenty of students at UVA and other elite universities who are plain lazy and get crappy grades in college...maybe UVA should set a higer minumum gpa to graduate if you are so worried about stupid people with a degree? ever think that some people dont realize how important school is until maybe a little later in life? maybe they didnt have two college educated parents growing up who pushed them to study and do well. stop being such an elitest, if these CC transfer can't handle rigorous ol state U, then they wont graduate, but if they can, then they will graduate and good for them. HTFH</p>

65

<p>Really, both should be admitted assuming everythign else is good. But with the system in place both students had the option and student 2 chose the UVA option. Therefore he deserves to go to UVA over Student 1, who didn't choose the UVA option.</p>

66

<p>Ranking:</p>

<p>Student/faculty ratios, spending per student, and selectivity affect rankings. </p>

<p>If guaranteed admission students come in large numbers, will the university even have enough time to hire new faculty in order to keep its s/f ratio in line and keep its classes small? Transfer students don’t even apply until March and the school must have faculty in place by August. W&M requires letters-of-intent from its guaranteed transfer students, at least a year ahead of time, to help them estimate and meet student demand. </p>

<p>If the University significantly increases enrollment, its endowment per student, and therefore spending per student, will decrease. Faculty resources and financial resources will decrease, and the school’s rankings will slide.</p>

<p>Let’s face it, selectivity affects ranking. Even if the University can avoid counting guaranteed transfer students in certain reportable statistics (median SATs, class standing, graduation rates, etc.) what will happen to UVA’s peer assessment if, due to its liberal transfer policy, peers no longer view UVA as a highly selective institution? Will high school students still try so hard to gain admission to UVA if they perceive the transfer process to be too easy? What other highly selective university offers guaranteed admissions to anyone?</p>

<p>High school:</p>

<p>No one said that a poor performance in high school should prevent one from transferring to UVA; however, wouldn’t the University want to take a close look at such a student’s course load at community college, evaluate their teacher recommendations, look at their test scores, essays, outside activities, and other responsibilities? The University considers all of these factors for those who performed well in high school; why wouldn’t these factors play an even more important role for those who did poorly?</p>

<p>sv3a:</p>

<p>
[quote]
both should be admitted assuming everythign else is good

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Isn’t this the whole point, “everything else” simply does not matter for Student #2.</p>

<p>What if Student #2’s gpa was short of the required 3.4 after 60 hours at community college; however, he then retook four of those courses and achieved a cumulative 3.4 gpa (once his grades in the repeated classes were averaged into his gpa). Assuming Student #1 did not repeat any courses, do you still believe Student #2 deserves a place over Student #1. </p>

<p>The agreement with VCCS states, “If a student repeats a course, the University will include the original and repeated course grades in the grade point average calculation.” Apparently, there is no limitation on the number of courses a guaranteed transfer student may repeat at community college.</p>

67

<p>Peer assessment scores wouldn't fall as a result of "lower" selectivity. Michigan is less selective than UVA and it has a higher peer assessment score. Berkeley, at worst, is about as selective as UVA, and its peer assessment score is among the best.</p>

<p>Look, dude, I know you're smarter than all of us, but you should tone it down. You're basing your entire argument on extreme assumptions and emotion rather than on any kind of substantive evidence. Making 3,000 word posts doesn't convince anybody, either. </p>

<p>Look, I don't necessarily agree with the transfer plan and the plan for increased enrollment, but I don't think it's going to devalue a UVA degree or destroy the University, either. Hell, I think UVA already has about two times as many undergrads as it should.</p>

68

<p>I don't care who takes which course or whatever. The fact is both students knew there was this option to go into UVA and one student chose not to take it and risk getting in through a normal transfer process instead. There was a perfectly equal opportunity for both students to get into UVA by attending a CC first- there is no fundamental unfairness in the system at all. Why do you keep insisting that Student 1 deserves to go to UVA over Student 2 even though the latter chose the UVA choice?</p>

69

<p>It took Virginia over 40 years to finally adopt a system that has worked well in California since it was instituted by Chancellor Clark Kerr in the state universities, colleges, and junior colleges of that state. The junior college transfer provisions reflected the states egalitarian values. I recommend that you go to the web site for the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Eduction in the 2002 reports, and read an article entitled Competition and Collaboration in California Higher Education by kath Reeves Bracco & Patrick M. Callan. A relevant provision is as follows:</p>

<p>"Student transfer from two-year community colleges to four-year public institutions is a core component of the California Master Plan. The promise of transfer—the accessibility of the baccalaureate degree to students who enroll in the community colleges—is what makes selective freshman admissions to the university and the state university compatible with the state’s egalitarian civic culture. The importance of transfer and the seriousness with which it was taken by the framers of the Master Plan is reflected in its provision that the university and state university must maintain a ratio of 60% upper-division to 40% lowerdivision students. This provision would ensure that most students in pursuit of the baccalaureate degree obtain a lower-division education in one segment (community colleges) and then transfer for their upper-division courses to one of the four-year segments." </p>

<p>The difference between California and Virginia is that California thoroughly thought through this process and had intellectually and educationally sound reasons for implementing these procedures. Virginia does not seem to have done this very carefully, and although I agree with policy, it has not been adequately explained to Virginia residents. I don't think it's an unfair policy as one of the posters states, or illegal, because it is applied equally to everybody. There are no illegal distinctions (race, national origin, sex, etc.) being made. I just think that Virginia may have a public relations not a legal problem for this new policy.</p>

70

<p>Cavalier:</p>

<p>We both know that Berkeley and Michigan have reputations for outstanding graduate departments, and that those reputations spill over to their undergraduate programs. UVA, on the other hand, has stand-out undergraduate programs and lesser graduate schools. I believe that the quality of UVA's undergraduate student body is a major component of its overall reputation. Therefore, if “peers” perceive a significant shift in the quality of Virginia’s student body, I believe they will adjust their assessment accordingly. </p>

<p>I do not believe my examples are extreme; rather, I believe they reflect the new reality. People will always game the system if they can get away with it, it’s just human nature.</p>

<p>Sv3a:</p>

<p>That’s fine. I respect your opinion. I just don’t agree. To answer your question, I believe that Student #1 is the stronger, more deserving, student and, on the merits, deserves a spot over Student #2. The state makes certain opportunities available to its residents, and I do not believe that the state should be in the business of penalizing, or rewarding, its residents for taking advantage of one opportunity and not another.</p>

<p>Venado:</p>

<p>I do not doubt that California has a model system. Community college students have always come to UVA, just as they have come to the UC campuses. I believe that community college students should have the SAME access to UVA as all other transfer candidates. In the past, Virginia evaluated community college candidates, on the merits, in the same pool as all of its other transfer applicants. Berkeley’s transfer procedures are cited above, and it appears that they evaluate transfer applicants in much the same way as Virginia did prior to this year. Berkeley does guarantee acceptance to any transfer applicant. Berkeley evaluates all of its candidates on the same admissions factors. Berkeley does not overtly favor one class of California residents over any other class of California residents. Berkeley looks to admit the best students that it can find, and retains control over the size of its student body. In short, Berkeley’s transfer admissions process is very, very different from the current UVA process.</p>

<p>Although I am not suggesting that UVA will have its new policy struck down, there are situations where the Supreme Court has stuck down discriminatory laws that did not fall into the protected categories that you mentioned. See
<a href="http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/rationalbasiswbite.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/rationalbasiswbite.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I will also point out that not all Virginia residents have equal access to the state’s community colleges, and some residents may find it much more convenient, if not essential, to attend a four-year institution.</p>

71

<p>Being rewarded for taking certain opportunities occurs all throughout life. If Student 1 wanted the spot then they should have stuck with UVA and not go to whatever else school. Early Decision is a similar process. Though it's not guaranteed admissions, it's an instance where some students who take advantage of it get in over 'more deserving' students who did not. Still, the crossover is small and situational, much like your story which is why I think it's not very relevant to the whole matter. If the person has what it takes to succeed in UVA then this is just another opportunity to get in. Not everyone with a 3.4 is going to roll in- and if they do then they'll quickly find out UVA was not for them. It's that person's decision to take the opportunity or not.</p>

<p>I'm not necessarily saying Student 2 is 'more deserving' of the spot in the sense of the qualifications listed out, but in the sense that they capitalized where they needed to, which is probably more important in the end.</p>

72

<p>are you guys aware that W&M has an articulation agreement with the Richard Bland College (also a VCCS)? Associate graduates are guaranteed admissions with a 3.0 GPA+</p>

<p>any thoughts?</p>

73

<p>Good point jaek.</p>

74

<p>
[QUOTE]
are you guys aware that W&M has an articulation agreement with the Richard Bland College (also a VCCS)? Associate graduates are guaranteed admissions with a 3.0 GPA+

[/QUOTE]
Just a repost of this info. UVA is one of the last schools to put an articulation agreement together.</p>

<p>See</a> them all here.</p>

75

<p>Actually, I have never heard of Richard Bland College before; however, I checked into your post and can tell you what I found out.</p>

<p>Richard Bland College is NOT part of VCCS and is not covered by the agreements with VCCS. See: <a href="http://www.so.cc.va.us/colleges/vccswebs.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.so.cc.va.us/colleges/vccswebs.htm&lt;/a> for a list of VCCS schools.</p>

<p>The college’s full name is “Richard Bland College of The College of William and Mary in Virginia.” It was founded in 1960 and is Virginia’s only state supported junior college. It is located in Petersburg, Virginia and has approximately 1400 students. See: <a href="http://www.rbc.edu/aboutrbc.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rbc.edu/aboutrbc.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Richard Bland College is a branch of the College of William and Mary and is governed by their Board of Visitors. </p>

<p>Apparently, the College of William and Mary has been accepting transfer students from Richard Bland College since 1960 who meet the following requirements:</p>

<p>Have a 3.0 gpa exclusive of physical education;
Have the recommendation of Richard Bland College;
Have completed an Associates Degree at RBC;
Is a Virginia Resident;
Have completed at least 45 hours at RBC; and
Students who are not native speakers of English should score at least 600 on the TOEFL examination.</p>

<p>See: <a href="http://www.rbc.edu/Faculty/William%20and%20%20Mary2002.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rbc.edu/Faculty/William%20and%20%20Mary2002.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This agreement differs from the VCCS agreement in that it only applies to Virginia residents and it requires a student to obtain a recommendation from RBC. I don’t know what is involved in securing the recommendation; however, it might cut out those who are obviously gaming the system.</p>

<p>Another difference is RBC has an enrollment of approximately 1400 while VCCS schools have an enrollment of over 231,000 (and are expecting “explosive growth.”) See: <a href="http://www.vccs.edu/vccsasr/Research/anualhist.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.vccs.edu/vccsasr/Research/anualhist.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>RBC does not have a transfer agreement with UVA Charlottesville, but it has agreements with other schools. See: <a href="http://www.rbc.edu/transfer-info.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rbc.edu/transfer-info.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Just because W&M has been doing this since 1960 doesn’t make it right. W&M’s regular admissions requirements are probably a lot different today than they were in 1960. Why would a state university have three admissions pools with vastly differing requirements for resident transfer students?</p>

<ol>
<li> RBC transfers (3.0);</li>
<li> VCCS transfers (3.6);</li>
<li> Transfers from other schools (who knows).</li>
</ol>

<p>Why should community college students in Petersburg get a big break at W&M? Why should college admissions be such a game? Maybe VCCS should renegotiate with W&M, but then again providing guarantees to a school with 1400 students is a very different story than providing guarantees to a system with over 230,000 students.</p>

76

<p>Quixotic, you bring up some good points, but seriously, we all should just chill, and see what happens within the next year or 2. Ranting here won't change what's already been signed and implemented. Plus, the summer's around the corner. It's a beautiful day outside, and there are much funner things to do than worry about UVA's admissions policy. Keep in mind that UVA reserves the right to change its admissions requirements if this whole thing doesn't work out. So, if all this does turn out to be a bad idea, then I'm sure the University will take alternate steps. Virginia's administration, alumni and students work too hard trying to improve UVA to let its education deteriorate, so have some faith...along w/ a banana strawberry shake by the pool. ;)</p>

77

<p>How about a guaranteed admission policy for IB diploma candidates? The requirements to obtain an IB diploma far exceed that of obtaining an Associate degree.</p>

<p>I've done MYP/IB for 7 years now, have only taken 3 (2 PE, 1 Art), non-AP course, non-IB, non-honors courses in the entire 7 years! Two years of CC would have been a lot easier than 7 years of commuting and satisfying the IB requirements (personal project, extended essay, community service and of course the IB exams). </p>

<p>I am obviously not in favor of the guaranteed transfer policy.</p>

78

<p>globalist is right. In the event that there is over-enrolling or problems due to the agreement, UVA has the right to withdraw from the agreement as long as they notify VCCS. And yeah enjoy the summer...please</p>

79

<p>I get an email notification about this thread about every other day, and it makes me laugh so that I cry. I agree with the "enjoy the summer" comments. This is getting absurd. No matter the result of this discussion quixotic loses...because at the end of the day he's at his computer writing 400 word essays over and over...and over again about this issue. Is this the state of the youth of America? Just concerned enough to write some stuff, but just apathetic enough to leave it at writing some stuff?</p>

80

<p>
[quote]
Unfortunately, I have no confidence that the current administration and the current Board of Visitors will actually take steps to maintain and improve our reputation and our student life. The Board of Visitors and the administration have been all too willing to sell out the University's academic reputation. The University has a towering reputation in Virginia and a fairly strong reputation in the eastern United States but lacks a national reputation outside of the East. </p>

<p>The obvious way to improve our reputation is to attract the best-quality students possible. In this space, I have suggested actions the University can take in this direction, such as increasing merit scholarships. What has the University done in the front in recent weeks? The University recently announced a program to guarantee admission to any Virginia Community College student with a 3.4 GPA or higher. I fail to see how such a program will improve our reputation, given the comparatively lax admissions policies of the community college system and the ease of community college classes compared to the University. While this program may prove politically popular among community college administrators, it sells out our long-term interest. Attracting top-quality students is essential for faculty quality and retention as well, for any professor will rate the quality of students as a top priority in choosing between universities.

[/quote]

<a href="http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=26944&pid=1440%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=26944&pid=1440&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>