Transferring to a "lesser" undergrad?

Graduate School
1

<p>I posted this earlier in the transfer discussion, but I figure it's probably best to get some input from the grad school experts.</p>

<p>I'm currently a freshman at UC Berkeley, seriously considering transferring to the University of Oregon. I'm wondering how this might effect my chances of being admitted to grad school further down the line. I realize this is an unconventional move (I can't seem to find any other threads discussing a transfer "down" the rankings ladder), but I decided to attend Cal based on all the wrong reasons (parental opinion and prestige, mainly), even though originally it had been my intention to avoid the UC system. I have been very, very uncomfortable and unhappy here. I don't think my personality type is very well suited for this kind of school or this kind of environment. </p>

<p>In addition to Oregon I am applying to several private colleges throughout the country, all of them more prestigious and more "on par" with Cal than Oregon is, but I have no reason to believe that I can expect a significant amount of financial aid from any of them (but hope springs eternal) and I'm not willing to go into debt for my undergraduate education. So my fingers are crossed, but I have to accept the fact that I probably won't be able to afford a private option. That said, once I factor in the scholarships I'm eligible for and the comparatively cheap cost of living in Eugene, the University of Oregon is about the same price as Cal, even for an out of state student. </p>

<p>I've visited Oregon twice this year in order to see a close friend from high school, who was an excellent student and probably could have gone to one of the top UCs, but decided to throw prestige out the window and go to Oregon because he really just loved it there. I realize my friend's happiness at the U of O isn't a surefire indicator of whether or not I'll be happy there as well, but I really, really enjoyed both my visits. More than I enjoyed my visits to some of the private schools I'm applying to, actually. The students aren't slackers like I thought they might be -- they're engaged and bright, but (thank god) they lack the pretentious quality that so many kids here at Berkeley have. Plus it's a much smaller school, and whereas here I get treated like a number, my friend at Oregon has been receiving personal attention and advice from the day he was admitted. Also I love the campus: it's small, beautiful, and feels very safe, which is really important to me. As a female, I don't feel safe walking around Cal after dark, and even during the day going off-campus makes me uncomfortable. I've been seriously harassed multiple times by men on the street, and I hate feeling like I have to restrict where I go and how I dress just so I can avoid negative attention like that when I go out. I know some girls don't mind it, but it makes me feel like a piece of meat, and it definitely doesn't help the school's general atmosphere. </p>

<p>Basically: I'm doing my best here at Cal, and I know it's probably best/easiest if I stay here... but honestly, I'm really not happy. And unless I'm really lucky, I probably can't afford to go to the other schools I'm applying to. :( If I wasn't so concerned with how the prestige factor might hurt my future, I'd leave for Oregon in an instant. I've heard that going to a less-academic undergraduate school won't hurt chances at grad school, but that's for when the student spent all for years at this lesser-known school, right? Do you think it would seem strange if someone who got into Berkeley, and could afford it, voluntarily decided to leave for the University of Oregon? </p>

<p>I can't justify this transfer academically. I know Berkeley is one of the best schools in the country, and I know I'm very fortunate to have been admitted. If asked later on why I did this, I'd just have to say that I tried to make Cal work, but I was miserable, and that I fell in love with Oregon. I don't know if that's good enough. </p>

<p>Advice, please!</p>

2

<p>Oh, I almost forgot: </p>

<p>I’m interested in law school or possibly a PhD program in either sociocultural anthropology or clinical psychology. I still haven’t officially declared a major, but I’m deciding between those two.</p>

3

<p>this thread is literally 5 posts down from yours…
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/graduate-school/1091049-what-undergrad-should-i-choose-go-good-grad.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/graduate-school/1091049-what-undergrad-should-i-choose-go-good-grad.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>short answer: no, it won’t matter at all as long as you still get good undergrad experience for whatever field your pursue</p>

4

<p>Thank you, but to clarify: I realize that entering a less-prestigious school as a freshman won’t hurt chances at grad school, but I’m wondering if a TRANSFER from a prestigious school like Berkeley to a school like Oregon would be at a disadvantage. Would it be seen as a sign that I can’t handle the workload here, or as an attempt to inflate my GPA, etc?</p>

5

<ol>
<li><p>I believe that graduating from Oregon rather than UCB will be a detriment to your graduate application. Definitely, not a deal breaker though.</p></li>
<li><p>Transferring may also be a bad sign that you could not handle the workload. Again, not a dealbreaker.</p></li>
<li><p>Most importantly, I believe the reason you are unhappy at UCB has nothing to do with your environment. Its your attitude. And you may end up in Oregon, feeling just as miserable as you do now.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Many people dream of going to a school like that. Just throwing it away because of some silly idiosyncrasy would be a shame! </p>

<p>James Madison, Jr.</p>

6

<p>If you’re really unhappy, transfer. Why be miserable for three more years in order to look better to grad schools? Maybe you won’t want to go to grad school right after college, anyway. It’s too early to tell- especially since you aren’t even sure of your major.</p>

<p>Graduate schools are most interested in your recommendations and whatever field work/internships/research you have achieved in your intended field. Do you think you’ll get great recs if you’re not happy, or only biding your time? You’d be better someplace where you will make the most of the resources that are available.</p>

<p>BTW, as a mom, I think it’s not that smart to be walking around alone after dark in any city- not just Berkeley. You’ll want to be careful in Eugene, too.</p>

7

<p>Your undergraduate institution does matter. If everything about you were equal to another applicant from Berkeley (assuming you went to Oregon), and there were only one spot available, then the spot would go to the Berkeley grad. But things are never equal.</p>

<p>If you are leaving Berkeley with good grades, then grad programs won’t think you couldn’t handle it, although they may be interested in why you left. If your grades are so-so, but you get top notch grades at your next university, you can always say that you weren’t mature enough as a freshman to handle the changes but since have applied yourself. The first year of college is usually a bye – graduate programs know that the transition can be tough – so even a mediocre first year followed by great grades doesn’t hurt.</p>

<p>Next, take a hard look at why you like Oregon so much. Your friend has individual attention, but is that because she has a fellowship or merit scholarship, or did it happen because the classes are small and/or professors are more available? Did you feel more comfortable on that campus because you were with a friend, or is the environment just better suited to your personality? Are your possible major departments strong enough? With the idea that you may be pursuing graduate school, are there ample opportunities for students to work on independent projects with professors?</p>

<p>Many students transfer, so you shouldn’t worry about that. That said, starting over as a sophomore will be the equivalent of declaring a major a year late since many of your classmates will already know some professors in their departments. This can be overcome, though, as long as you recognize this disadvantage and make real efforts to be known as a conscientious and ambitious student.</p>

<p>If attending a top graduate program is important to you, you’ll have to work a little harder to get there from Oregon. Yes, it can be done. Many people on this forum have gotten into top notch programs from second or third tier universities, but they had to be the best coming out of their departments, with extensive research/independent projects behind them. </p>

<p>If you were my daughter, I’d say that you should never trade prestige for happiness. In the long run, you don’t have to be the best of the best to have a rewarding, productive career.</p>

8

<p>I don’t think it’s going to be a detriment or that it will show that you can’t handle the workload. People transfer for all kinds of reasons - unhappiness, lack of funds, desire to move closer to family or friends, etc. It doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t handle it nor do I think that any professor is going to make that assumption. If you transferred 6 times in 4 years, maybe, but one transfer is not going to hurt you.</p>

<p>People may dream of going to UCB, but they dream about it before they even know what it’s like. If you are unhappy and you want to transfer, do so. Life is too short to languish somewhere you don’t want to be, and I highly doubt it’s going to hurt you in the long run. I don’t even know that I agree with Momwaitingfornew’s assessment that all other things being equal, the spot would go to a Berkeley grad. It really depends on the program and people’s perceptions - perhaps Oregon has a killer classics department and you are going into a classics program, for example.</p>

9

<p>1) It won’t be an issue. Many people transfer down(including to a community college) for many reasons(including costs, fit, family circumstances, etc). If you’re asked why you left, you tell the truth, the school environment was not a good fit for you. Your excuse is reasonable. Now if you’re transferring, and you have a low GPA(which I assume is not the case given that you are applying to Berkeley-caliber schools) then it might appear that you couldn’t handle Berkeley’s rigor. However, most PhD programs(depending on the program) are more interested in your upper division coursework for your planned graduate course of study. Freshman work or lower division work is not as relevant as your upper division coursework. Don’t believe me? Look up PhD program admissions requirements at different schools. Most will specify for you to have completed X number of classes/units in upper division coursework in the department you plan on getting a PhD.<br>
2)What matters for Law School is your GPA and LSAT scores. A student with a 3.8 or 3.9 from University of Oregon + a great lsat score will have an easier time getting accepted to a top Law School over a Berkeley student with a 3.4 with the same great lsat score.
3)PhD/PsyD programs admissions isn’t as black and white as Law School admissions. You’re going to have to bust your b*** off to get involved in relative research + develop great relationships with professors to get great letters of recommendations. I find the latter(establishing great relationships with professors) to be much more difficult at schools like Berkeley. Professors at top large state schools, like Berkeley, do not have time for undergrads(unless of course you happen to be lucky and take many seminars during your undergrad years).
Lastly, the plus with attending a school like Berkeley-and I’m not sure if this is the case with Oregon, are the opportunities (and cheap costs for in-staters). I know at the UC I attend, one just has to walk into the psychology department’s offices to see multiple postings on boards that seek students who are interested in doing research. Another thing to consider is your future if you don’t plan to go to graduate school. Will you return back to California after Oregon? It will be a lot easier to seek employment through Berkeley’s network than to find a job on your own without those resources. Finally, (and this is my opinion) fit is overrated. The real world is not about “fit”. You’ll have coworkers/employers who you won’t mesh well with. Learning to understand what it is that truly makes you happy(and I’m not talking about just examining happiness on a superficial/surface level-i.e. “social fit”) and learning to control the “superficial/surface level” happiness, will take you a lot further than always needing to have things be your way. I would have loved to attended a small liberal arts college or been at any number of private schools(“for fit”), but the reality of my situation is that I value learning for the sake of learning, and the fact that I get to learn the subjects that interest me the most is so fulfilling beyond words.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for all your advice! </p>

<p>As far as convenience goes, I realize that it would probably be best to stay at Cal, and since I have several more months before I have to make my decision, I’m definitely going to do all that I can to try and improve my experience here. But it’s really comforting knowing that if I do decide to transfer “down,” or transfer anywhere for that matter, I won’t be completely throwing away my chances at grad school. </p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew: I do genuinely like Oregon, and I don’t think it has to do with the fact that I was with a friend. I have friends at Cal, and I know several people here from high school – Oregon’s atmosphere just really appealed to me. I don’t know whether or not the degree of personal attention my friend receives from the administration is a result of his being the “big fish in a small pond,” but if that is the case, I think I could reasonably expect the same amount of advice and attention; his high school credentials were great, but mine are probably a little better. In the classroom, though, the attention he receives is a function of class-size and professor involvement. It’s definitely a more intimate environment than at Berkeley. As for the programs I’m looking at – I think I just have to accept that as far as the rankings go, Berkeley trumps Oregon in pretty much every category (except football haha), but I’ve heard that Oregon has a pretty solid psychology department, which is what I’m leaning towards majoring in at the moment. I’ve spoken with a girl who’s majoring in psych there, and she’s really happy with her experience so far and says her professors are great.</p>

<p>liek0806: There are definitely lots of opportunities at Cal, and the professors here are brilliant in their fields. I just find them generally inaccessible, but that may be because I’m a first-year undergraduate student. I’ve heard that things improve as you move into upper-division courses. Still, I found the level of professor-student interaction at Oregon really exceptional for a big state school, and although it isn’t a research institution of Berkeley’s caliber, I know there are lots of opportunities available for students who seek them out. </p>

<p>JamesMadison: Thank you for your honesty, but please don’t assume that my attitude is the only thing preventing me from enjoying my time at Berkeley. Frankly, it’s insulting. I know how fortunate I am to be one of the privileged few in this country, and in the world, who has the chance to be educated at such a renowned university – or even to be educated at all. My parents are paying a lot of money for this opportunity, and I have been doing everything I can to make the best of it. Whether or not Berkeley is a school that others dream of, it simply doesn’t suit my personality and my educational needs. I do not have a “silly idiosyncrasy” – I’m just not the kind of person who thrives in this kind of institutional, highly competitive environment.</p>

11

<p>I fully disagree that a dislike of the UCal system comes from attitude in the OP’s case. She clearly stated that she does not feel safe.</p>

<p>As someone who hates, hates, HATES, to the point of nausea, the culture of Southern California and is antipathetic towards the Bay Area at best, I fully understand the desire not to live there. “Fit” may be overrated for college, but quality of life is important. I love the northwest and I can completely imagine, as a young adult, wanting to leave California and head north, college rankings be damned.</p>

<p>That said…</p>

<p>It’s hard to find jobs in Oregon. That’s the problem. If you’re thinking of going to grad school, I am sure that you will be able to get in somewhere after going to college in Eugene. However, if you want to get paid a lot, or even a middle-class salary, you’re probably going to have to be in the top 5% of your class, or leave Oregon.</p>

<p>A lot of people don’t leave. The pace of life, the culture, the fact that people don’t freaking honk their horns just because you stalled your car–I guess people in California think that the sound waves from multiple horns suddenly cause a clutch to become un-stuck, or can even turn upside an overturned semi truck, like so many inverted Jericho ram’s horns, but in the northwest we know that honking your horn does not actually do anything to fix the situation but on the contrary aggravates it–all of this may become too enticing to leave. Just a word of warning.</p>

<p>"Still, I found the level of professor-student interaction at Oregon really exceptional for a big state school, and although it isn’t a research institution of Berkeley’s caliber, I know there are lots of opportunities available for students who seek them out. "</p>

<p>The profs are accessible because they aren’t researching. :shrug: You will never have the same research opportunities at Oregon schools. But you will almost certainly enjoy yourself more.</p>

<p>I think that rather than cause a different career trajectory, your choice now will be a reflection of the priorities that will shape your career. If you want the best in research and the top career, stay in Cali and stick it out. If you think quality of life is important, leave California at all costs, knowing you will lose status in the short and long run.</p>

<p>I’m not sure it’s a cause and effect thing.</p>

12

<p>perhaps somebody here can help me. Im an anthropology major at a lower level university and have an opportunity to transfer to a higher one. Im on the fence only because I think the anthro program at my current university is better than the one I would transfer to. So, my question is: Do grad schools take the strength of the major into consideration? or does the overall rank of the school matter more?</p>