I was in fact referencing those operating with mutual respect looking for common ground versus those who seem determined to polarize.
Calling people racists, refusing to respect an individuals preferred pronouns or identity, diminishing student athletes by vilifying their competitiveness, or suggesting a young trans athlete shouldn’t be allowed a venue to participate as trans athletes because “it’s a choice” all suggest a certain lack of tolerance and empathy.
Ah, you thought I was referring to the general population. I was referring to the population of participants in a specific sport, and to success in that specific sport. That is why comparisons are possible.
My view of fairness is that players who transition should end up in roughly the same relative competitive position as before. But while it’s difficult to get it exactly right for an individual, given enough samples it is easy to measure if, on average, those who transition end up with an advantage or disadvantage.
I know plenty of swimmers desperate for that last slot on a D1 team. Dozens in my town alone, who have practiced twice daily at 5 am and 5pm, 7 days a week, for years. Please do not tell them that slot isn’t important. It is to them.
Unclear what the trans athlete’s age has to do with the question for @Catcherinthetoast, but that’s OK. Seems to be yet another distinction some want to make for some reason; no idea why middle aged or old trans athletes would merit some different treatment.
Yep, plenty of swimmers want a D1 spot. And aren’t going to get them. As you said, dozens in your home town alone. Now multiply that out nationally. Which is why it’s a trope to blame “stealing a spot” on the one swimmer that’s trans. How do they know it’s “their” spot? What assurance do they have that a trans swimmer is the reason they didn’t get a spot? If those girls check the rosters they are actually bound to find swimmers slower than them that got "their’ spot. Coaches make offers based on many things. Yeah, they may have cut a fraction of a second off their time, but a coach still may have liked someone better. And we’ll never know why. They could have been taller. The coach may have thought they had more room for growth They could have had a better attitude. Or maybe it was because mom had a nice smile. But yet, let’s blame a trans swimmer for a random kid not making the team.
That makes more sense than going by the total population, and eventually, after there are “enough samples” it may provide an interesting method of reviewing whether a particular standard is relatively “fair” to all involved. But without “enough samples,” how would this approach help in determining the initial standard? Because as it is now, there aren’t a lot of “samples,” and those few tend to be outliers which get an outsized amount of attention. Setting policy based on outliers is fraught with peril, and I am not sure much data exists beyond the outliers.
ETA: Also I’m not sure the control for “participants in a particular sport” adequately captures the characteristics which aren’t related to transition, nor is basing it on “wins” necessarily the appropriate standard, and it certainly isn’t well enough defined.
In other words, even if your view of fairness is was accepted, there are a lot of factors that entering to to relative competitive position, and it may be hard to capture the complexities in the manner you suggest.
Men and women. Lia basically traded in a men’s slot for one on the women’s team. Net Zero? Not quite…
There are 220 Division I schools with swim teams. 219 of them have a women’s team…158 have a men’s team. Seems that Title IX makes swimming much more accessible for women than men. So if you really want to talk about “taking a spot”, Lia has traded in a $1 ticket for 75 cents.
Men’s teams in all types of sports are canceled more and more frequently to address financial and Title IX issues. How about the reality of an entire team of swimmers losing their spots versus one person on the swim team? Look at ECU last year. They canceled men’s and women’s swimming and tennis, but have reinstated the women’s teams.
In case you were wondering…NJIT which is 74% male, has a men’s but no women’s swim team.
Not a problem if trans gets its own category, then. Not taking slots on either men’s or women’s teams
Lia Thomas is not taking a slot from women. She is a woman.
Yup - there is never an exactly level playing field…
True. And some are advantaged through a Y chromosome and lots of testosterone. We just have to decide which advantages to overlook in competition.
I can’t help but wonder if we would even be having this conversation if Lia can in 4th…or 10th…or last place. Would it be “fair” then?
I don’t know…just thinking aloud.
Title IX stuff is a whole other issue. For instance, there are about 23 men’s volleyball D1 schools but over 300 D1 women’s programs. It is what it is. Many colleges have very competitive men’s club teams to make up the gap, with competitive tryouts, regional and national tournaments,etc . Lia’s situation is quite different and it does seem challenging in terms of how this will all work out. There seems to be enough opposition to Lia being on the women’s team, that colleges and the NCAA will probably be looking at this closely.
I think for swimming, height is a good indicator. Even for basketball, rather than MS and HS leagues there could be games for kids of a similar height (after all, there are 5 levels of HS levels, why not have 3 and add height?) But it’s also been established I’m not an athlete and don’t know enough. 
That would not work . Height helps for basketball but it is not all about height, otherwise my 6’11" Ivy league basketball playing nephew would be in the NBA! It’s not that simple.
We probably wouldn’t be having this conversation because no spotlight would be placed on it (or, like you said, it’d be called “fair”). The point of many of the articles written about people like Lia is to generate outrage and make the problem seem more serious than it actually is.
While I am sure not the case on CC…
“Of course, misgendering can also be a deliberate act. People who have discriminatory beliefs and ideas about the trans community can use misgendering as a tactic for harassment and bullying.”
So no one inadvertently misgenders, Lia Thomas identifies as female and has preferred pronouns of her and she.
This discussion is focusing on swimming, a sport where the other competitors won’t get physically hurt because someone is smaller in a different lane.
What if Lia had switched from men’s lacrosse to women’s lacrosse? Boys learn a different way of throwing the ball, really whipping it. Hard. Boys/men also wear protective equipment (pads, helmets, gloves) because it is a much more physical game but even taking out the crosschecks and other contacts allowed in the men’s game, I can’t see it being safe.
I think the NCAA will rethink the standard of requiring a year’s treatment without other requirements too.
I am curious about sports like gymnastics where the events and equipment used aren’t even the same. While a trans gymnast probably would be really rare, it made me think about the parallel bars vs the high bar or the rings vs the balance beam. It is possible that a trans gymnast would have a difficult time qualifying for big meets because of the discrepancy in skills but it is possible that higher scores in one event might be enough to compensate for lower ones in another. Certainly is thought provoking.
@twoinanddone - Lacrosse is even more of a minefield. US Lacrosse’s policy is to allow play based on your chosen pronoun, and if you’re non-binary, you can choose either for participation.
Team sports are easier points of acceptance, as you need others to succeed. Swimming provides a perfect vehicle for those who want to object, as it is individual and timed. Every female swimmer parent looks at the time and reacts that it’s unfair. 10+ years of smelling chlorine for 40+ weekends per year provide all of the proof needed. I understand the concerns, but feel the positives of participation and acceptance are infinitely greater than the harm done to a few dozen individuals who came in second during the last few swims of their competitive lives.
As for @helpingmom40 and gymnastics, the differences in the sports focus on movement (women) vs. strength (men). Nearly all exceptional female gymnasts are around 5’ tall (give or take a few inches). That size makes it easier to spin and rotate with limbs being closer to the axis. The strength in men’s gymnastics is exceptional for everyone, male or female.
Would anyone here be concerned or outraged that a 5’0" transgender female, even after 8 or 10 years with a testosterone advantage, would have a physical advantage over Simone Biles or other members of either a top NCAA gymnastics squad or Olympic team?