First D1 coach to voice an opinion.
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Genuine question here: How many trans women do you know? How many trans girls are at your children’s schools? How many trans women are in your immediate family? Your friends? Your work? School?
With these arguments, I always have to take a step back and wonder why it’s made to seem like every single corner of the world is going to be “overrun” with these women & (trans) men just being themselves. It is not as common as it’s made to seem. Think about the thousands of high schools in the US, the sheer amount of colleges. It would be uncommon to have one or two trans people in plenty of places in the US, let alone in sports.
I also want to point out that it is absolutely commendable that this young woman is able to live comfortably in her own skin. That takes so much bravery. One thing I couldn’t explain to a cisgender person is the sheer amount of nerves, shame, and depression that comes with preparing to come out. It is the most difficult thing that many, most, will never have to do. It isn’t about being scared to be yourself- it’s about being terrified of the people around you, and how they’ll react. I was incredibly disappointed to see some people in this thread being the type of person that makes it so difficult to come out.
Just be kind to your fellow people. You have no idea how difficult their circumstances are.
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Many people have difficult personal circumstances and have overcome tremendous adversity and obstacles to compete in sports. Laudable, but it shouldn’t affect the outcome of a fairly conducted athletic competition.
No doubt Lia has suffered. Likely so have some of her competitors for other reasons.
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Of course, the point is though that she shouldn’t suffer continuously from being a trans woman. It’s alienating to be constantly questioned and debated about your own existence. Not an attack on you, just a point.
I didn’t see anyone questioning her right to existence on this thread, just her right to win. That is, after all, what this is about. Lia could easily continue her love of swimming and competition and team camaraderie on the team she was already on for 2 years-she just wouldn’t win, which appears to be her objective.
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Of course. Unfortunately, some people haven’t been kind to her in this thread, and that was sort of where I was going with my comment. I see what you’re saying, I hear you, I just think that people should approach this kindly. : )
As far as the competitive aspect goes, I think it’s fair to want to win and for that to be her objective. It can be incredibly, incredibly alienating to be on a “men’s” team when you’re not a man. Everything hurts- hearing the coach call the “guys” (which includes you), not having a bathroom to change with them, not knowing which swimsuit to wear, being dysphoric regarding pretty much anything. She wanted to be comfortable, and she has a right to that, yknow? I think her main concern wasn’t winning when she went onto the women’s team, rather being treated like the woman she is.
A trans man wouldn’t join a sports team just to lose; rather to be treated like a man and have the ability to be comfortable when doing what they love. Trans people truly don’t have any malicious intentions, (not directed towards you, friend!) they just want to be comfortable and accepted for who they truly are.
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Then just maybe her not trying to win every race with little effort would go a long way towards easing the concerns about her participation. If she wants the comfort of the women’s team, she can make her teammates comfortable too.
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Actually, I can think right off the bat of two trans men and five trans women who were high school friends of my kids. And my kids were not social butterflies who were friends with every one of the 1200 kids in the school. There had to have been more than that, and then even more who transitioned after high school. It’s become far more common than you’d realize, at least in the liberal northeastern state/town where I live - and I suspect that in less liberal parts of the country, young people move to more liberal parts of the country and transition after high school.
But yes, it’s always a decision that is fraught with emotional turmoil, usually serious depression, often suicidal ideation or frank attempts. From what I’ve seen, the parents often only come to accept it when they realize that they can have a live trans child, or a dead straight one.
But that is NOT what this is about. This is about the fact that having gone through male puberty gives men’s bodies a very significant advantage over women’s bodies, when it comes to competitive sports. The reason that we have weight divisions in wrestling is that weight provides an unfair advantage in wrestling. The reason that we have women’s sports and men’s sports is that in most sports, men’s size and strength give them an unfair advantage over women, in general. Bodies that went through male puberty, even though they may now no longer be under the influence of testosterone, still have developed, under the influence of testosterone, as men’s bodies, and have an inherent advantage over women’s bodies. We are seeing the results of that right now, with this swimmer, who is destroying the women’s records in collegiate swimming, posting times that it’s likely that no cis woman will ever reach. Imagine how that feels for the cis women who have worked for probably over a decade to be in competition to become winners, only to have it blown away by someone with an unfair inherent biological advantage over them that gender separation in sports is supposed to preclude. I can only imagine the mindset of the trans swimmer who, now realizing how unseemly it is to finish so far ahead of all the cis women, apparently now is just hanging back until the end of the race, not even trying, until the very end of the race, so as not to “skunk” the cis woman competitor who is giving it her all. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/sports/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer.html
Perhaps it’s time to create a trans division in sports, just as we have the Paralympic Olympics. But what is going on here is most definitely NOT fair play, it is not good sportsmanship. Isn’t that the first thing that we teach our kids, in those soccer and T-ball games for five year olds, to play hard but to always play fair?
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If you asked people if a man who identifies as female should be able to compete in a women’s tennis tournament by just wearing a women’s tennis outfit, I would expect the vast majority of people would say that isn’t reasonable or fair. So for the vast majority of people, there are lines to be drawn. Its just a question of where to draw them. That different people draw them at different places doesn’t necessarily make any of them insensitive, uncaring, unkind, etc.
And as others have noted, none of this says anything about respect and dignity that every person is entitied to and everyone deserves. That isn’t being called into question (though without question, not everyone receives that respect and dignity).
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What is the “vomit face” response here? Does the person who responded this way find intersex people to be disgusting?
There should be a way to mute such inappropriate emoji responses as well.
@ucbalumnus This isn’t in response to your post, but to the response.
PS. Just catching up on the thread, which is why I’m responding to an old post.
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Adding to the transgender athlete controversies in school teams…
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I would recommend that CC get rid of this emoji altogether.
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The “vomit faces” might suggest otherwise.
Also, you and others haven’t just questioned their “right to win.” Rather you and others have questioned the right of transgender athletes, male or female, from even competing at all. For example, you wrote that altering hormones, “whether up or down, is one thing you decide to give up if you decide compete athletically at the college level or higher.”
This would effectively ban all transgender athletes from athletic competitions, even those who were transitioning in a direction which would make it difficult or nearly impossible for the person to “win.” As is pointed out in the SI article just posted by @ucbalumnus, this isn’t about only about fairness in women’s sports.
Likewise regarding the proposal by you and others to marginalize transgender athletes by forcing transgender athletes to compete only in a transgender classification, sequestered from “men’s” and “women’s” divisions. What could be more dehumanizing and degrading than an institutional policy establishing that trans men aren’t really men and trans women aren’t really women?
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I suggested an alternate category for those who have been thru male puberty, just like the Rice coach suggested.
I did read that many nations( and perhaps the Olympics?) Permit those who transitioned before male puberty occurred( and thus never had the hormone surge) to compete in their affirmed gender. Apparently that is done in some places. If you are so disturbed by the nomenclature, I suppose competition could be divided as low-testosterone humans, high testosterone humans, and those with artificially altered testosterone levels. Seems unnecessary for most of us.
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Recognizing that language evolves over time, and in some instances rapidly evolves, I will simply point out that the preferred terminology these days is “affirmed gender.”
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Thanks, edit made. Is “chosen gender” also used or no?
As I quoted, earlier you suggested that everyone who transitioned in either direction be banned from competing at all, whether or not the athlete received a competitive advantage. You were quite clear about that.
It is not about “nomenclature” it is about human dignity. You want tell tell men and women who have transition that they aren’t really men and women. Makes no difference if you change the words to “low-testosterone humans” and “high testosterone humans.” And if you are already classifying by testosterone levels, then one might wonder about the motivation for excluding the third group from the first two.
Let’s also move on from the vomit face discussion.
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You do realize athletes are banned from competition already for all sorts of artifical medicines and treatments? This is no different.