My question was, I guess, sort of rhetorical.
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I keep in mind that elite swimmers swim year round. They swim on their school teams during the school season, and swim with clubs during the rest of the year. The club teams, practices, and meets are co-ed (and often include multiple age groups too.) Sometimes at a meet, if an event has few participants signed up, it will be “mixed” in terms of gender and age group. For example, maybe a heat of the 500 will have both girls and boys, and different ages all in the pool at once. But in terms of winning points for the team, or qualifying for A, B or C time standards, or qualifying for the state or national meets, or setting records, you do so based on your biological category (both sex and age.) I wonder if school teams could become at least a little more like club teams in that respect? There could still be gendered teams if people wanted (Men’s team, Women’s team) and an athlete could choose to be on the roster on whichever they preferred. But when it came time for points, podium, records etc. it would be based on biological (not gender) categories. Maybe those categories could be “Ever went through testosterone puberty” and “Never went through testosterone puberty.” Maybe if enough demand, a 3rd category that would include “Partial or legacy testosterone effects.”
As long as the meet is seeded by times that would be ok. It’s always so weird to see two swimmers of varying ages or genders swimming in the same event. I believe it is also hard for the swimmer to gauge where they stand in terms of timing. The new mixed relays exemplify this as you can never tell which foursome will likely pull out the win until the last leg - at least for me as an onlooker.
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The linguistic gymnastics in this thread are Olympic caliber.
The reality is that most people will never accept a transgender woman as a good athlete. If she wins, it is based on the genetic benefit of being born male. The next Lia who meets the requirements and sets records will serve to reset the bar.
It’s OK to dislike the potential advantages of testosterone, but let’s all agree that “fairness” is just code for “so long as she doesn’t win.”
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The specific criteria used for any other sport may be different, based on the characteristics of the sport. That is presumably why the NCAA stated that it intends to follow each sport’s governing body, in order to allow for sport-specific considerations.
I’d rephrase to say “The reality is that a transgender woman athlete is not a female athlete and if she wins there will be a question of whether the genetic benefits bestowed on her by virtue of her biological sex/physical development through puberty resulted in unfair advantages over her female competitors.”
Seems like USA swimming has similar concerns:
- Evidence that the prior physical development of the athlete as a male, as mitigated by any medical intervention, does not give the athlete a competitive advantage over the athlete’s cisgender female competitors.
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No, “fairness” would be if when a person transitioned they performed about where they used to. So if you were ranked #462 nationwide on the men’s side (as Lia was) you would be ranked more or less the same after transition to being a woman athlete. But that’s not the case, Lia is ranked #1 now. This huge leap is due to the legacy effects of testosterone puberty. (If Lia had been a national champion on the men’s team before transition, and won by similar margins on the woman’s team after transition, that would be fair too, and people would have mainly accepted it. But Lia was an also-ran as a male swimmer.)
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So transgender women are not female? Sheesh.
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Gender isn’t the same as sex.
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New development today…some Penn teammates ask the school and Ivy League to not challenge new NCAA rules. This counters earlier reports that Lia’s teammates were supportive, of course some may be, while others aren’t.
A letter written on behalf of 16 members of the University of Pennsylvania’s swim team was sent to the university and the Ivy League on Thursday asking that they not pursue legal action to challenge the NCAA’s new transgender athlete participation policies.
The letter was written by Nancy Hogshead-Makar, CEO of Champion Women and an Olympic champion in swimming, on behalf of 16 members of swim team.
The NCAA’s new policies could potentially block swimmer Lia Thomas from competing in March’s NCAA championships.
In the letter obtained by CNN, the swim team members say they feel that she holds an “unfair advantage over competition.”
“We fully support Lia Thomas in her decision to affirm her gender identity and to transition from a man to a woman. Lia has every right to live her life authentically,” the letter says. “However, we also recognize that when it comes to sports competition, that the biology of sex is a separate issue from someone’s gender identity. Biologically, Lia holds an unfair advantage over competition in the women’s category, as evidenced by her rankings that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/04/us/lia-thomas-ncaa-transgender-policy-letter/index.html
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My answer wasn’t. It is important to the NCAA that all student athletes have a place to compete, or at least participate in sports. Lia does have a place to compete, it’s just not on the women’s team.
Not everyone is guaranteed to make a team, to get a starting position, to win a championship. Most schools try to offer some type of sports to the students - varsity team, club team, intramurals. Lia has a team she can be part of, and that’s what she says she wants. She could also do other swimming like Masters or a club team
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As a female high-school athlete who has been following this story, all I have to say is that she has a complete advantage. I am not a swimmer, but in cross country, ANY and ALL of the members of my high school’s boy’s varsity XC team would win the girl’s state meet or be in the top 5. Easily. They’re just built differently, and those differences warrant distinct advantages in sports.
I am not sure what the solution is to this, but allowing these athletes to compete will only lead to less scholarships for biological females and likely be the end of biological females competing in sports. She went from #462 as a male to #1 as a female…quite a dramatic improvement. And that’s after the “two years of hormone therapy.” Even with hormone therapy, there is no way that there will ever be a level playing field after someone transitions to be female.
I would have to side with the 16 teammates on this, and I think many people (not necessarily on here, but anyone in support of people like Lia competing in women’s sports) are not familiar from an athletic standpoint of the clear differences and advantages.
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The most disturbing part of this story for me is that the girls on Penn’s team who did not support Lia Thomas were asked by the University to shut up. There was a lot of commentary given annonimously for fear of retribution and being labeled as ‘transphobic’. Censoring people’s speech as well as labeling people to claim moral superiority has been proven in history to be disastrous for democracy.
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Disappointing…there is a lack of equal opportunity with her competing.
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I think it’s the right decision. She met the requirements to participate when the competition began, and not allowing her to compete because she is winning would be wrong.
As a result, the rules have been changed. That happens all the time in sports, and rules are refined to improve competition.
Sure it is disappointing for the folks who finish behind her, but if a few dozen people lose one spot in the NCAA finals so that the future definition of fairness is improved, then it will have delivered progress.
Lia followed the rules, and therefore should be allowed to compete.
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I agree with respect to rule changes to improve competition (or other administrative type rule changes). Continue with what you started the season and make changes effective next season. But here the rule change was made out of fairness not some general improvement of competition. As such, I would make it effective now.
And I disagree that being unfair to a few dozen people is better than one person keeping that which wasn’t fair to be given in the first place.
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Lia sure doesn’t seem to mind how her teammates feel after all the headlines made. So I guess only Lia cares about Lia.
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This is about thousands of people, not one.
Life’s not fair. If you want proof, look at the general lifestyle and affluence of competitive swimmers.
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Are there thousands of transgender swimmers at the D-1 championships?
Of course life isn’t fair. But does that mean we shouldn’t try to make it less unfair when we can do so?
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