As I mentioned upthread I did write to both the NCAA and UPenn. As an alum I am very disappointed in how Penn handled this entire situation. And I could care less that Thomas won anything as I don’t agree with the rules that allowed her to compete at all.
Thomas’ decision to compete highlighted an issue I’m very concerned about which is why I choose to engage in this thread.
Fair enough.
I will celebrate any Ivy League national championship! As mentioned above, I fell in love with Penn in 1979 when it made it to the men’s basketball Final Four. That was truly an amazing time.
It’s nice when the Ivies win something outside of New England/NY/Philly!
She couldn’t qualify for the Olympics now, but may if her hormone levels come in under the levels required by that governing body. I do not know of the rules for ‘pro’ swimmers or where they swim.
So looking at the converse of your polarized comment, are you suggesting by using the term “under any circumstances” that no testosterone threshold should exist? No suppression period? In other words should transgender athletes be allowed to compete under any circumstances?
If so seems like your solution of “any circumstances” would hardly be fair as it suggests a person could just identify (which I respect) and then compete immediately.
Is that what you are saying and do you think that would be fair to the other athletes?
And yes her victory should both be celebrated and recognized having not broken any rules. Seemingly however you are saying there shouldn’t be any rules.
Of course she and other trans athletes should be allowed to compete but the details of fairness seem elusive.
So please be specific how would you make it fair?
This is a couple of years old.
Thanks!
And who are those winners? Do you have any articles where anyone actually cares?
Article I linked lists national titles (both team and individual) by Ivy League school. Doesn’t say which sports. But you said you were happy for Ivy League national titles. I just provided a link to say there have been a lot of them.
As to anyone caring, I am not sure there is much broad scale interest in titles other than D-1 football and mens basketball. But for Thomas competing, how much coverage does women’s NCAA swimming championships typically get? Women’s hockey national title was decided today. Not expecting much coverage of that tonight on Sportscenter. Or mens wrestling national titles which were decided yesterday. Just the way it is.
Again, I stress: how exactly is ANYONE contending that Lia wrongfully won her NCAA title?
Your providing a list of all the NCAA titles that Penn and other Ivies has/have won doesn’t negate that, does it? Most importantly, WHO CARES?
AFAIK, the 1979 Final Four is about as good as it gets. And yes, Lia won an NCAA championship in 2022.
Do you have anything to say that these two notable Penn events are wrongfully earned?
“Why she competes?” is a completely different question. Why does anyone compete? Fun, camaraderie, the thrill of competition, motivation to improve oneself both mentally and physically. Or maybe to stay in college one more year, maybe get a graduate degree (not sure that is what Lia did), or try and avoid the beginning of “real life.”
BTW, lots and lots of college athletes elected to use the extra year of NCAA eligibility due to covid in order to compete one more year.
OK, for the record, I watched the NCAA men’s wrestling title matches that were televised on ESPN yesterday. Penn State won the national title and Michigan finished 2nd.
And while I didn’t watch the women’s college hockey title game, I did watch the B1G men’s hockey championship, where Michigan beat Minnesota. 
Yes, I’m not your normal sports fan, but come on, two men grappling on a mat for superiority? What’s not to like? 
Is there any circumstance where you would consider it “fair” to allow transgender females to compete as females?
This exact same argument is made whenever a member of any marginalized group (including women, minorities, gay and lesbian persons, immigrants, etc.) gains access to any segment of society in which they had previously not been welcome.
Ms. Thomas began transitioning after her sophomore year, and much of her junior year was preempted by Covid. So she effectively had two seasons.
I would assume she chose to compete because she loves swimming and competing. According to her she was grateful for the opportunity to compete as her true self.
As for what she gets out of it, I imagine she gets the joy of doing something she loves. But she has also gotten endless hate and vitriol, threats, shunning, scorn, demeaning comments, misleading and outright false press coverage, repeated misgendering, and has faced countless other indignities.
From a distance, it seems she has handled the circumstance with grace and dignity, and doesn’t seem to have actively sought out the spotlight. The same cannot be said for many of those who are opposed to her being allowed to compete.
I posted the link to the Ivy national titles in response to this post of yours. You say you celebrate any Ivy national title. The link I posted indicated that the Ivys had won 292 team national titles and 556 individual/event national titles. They have won a lot outside New England/NY/Philly. Your response is Who Cares? You are the one who brought up celebrating Ivy national titles. If you don’t care about them, why bring up celebrating them?
But then you bring up the 1979 final four and Lia Thomas title being wrongfully earned (neither of which I have seen as being contested here–by anyone) as if somehow related to the link I posted. Total head scratcher there. I have already stated my view on the swimming title. And I had no idea we were somehow talking about the 1979 final 4 (FWIW, we weren’t and aren’t).
the only thing that is relevant to this thread is whether Lia’s victory is invalid. Do you have one iota of evidence that it’s not?
I celebrate any Ivy national sporting accolade.You and others are obviously deeply interested in Lia’s win, as am I. I am also ecstatic about Penn’s Final Four appearance.
But, as I said, the issue is that is won the NCAA championship for a particular event in swimming. Does anyone care to demonstrate why this is a problem under the prevailing rules at the time she won?
Please do focus on Lia. I am celebrating her victory and the 1979 Final Four Penn team. I am not sure how many other Ivy league championships rise to this level.
But the focus is on Lia. Congrats to you!
Sorry. I missed your comment and questions.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I definitely did not mean to suggest that “no testosterone threshold should exist.” I am suggesting that, regardless of any testosterone threshold and/or other remediating measures to try to “level the playing field,” many would still consider it unfair for transgender females to compete as females.
Likewise I haven’t claimed any of the other things you think follow from the initial misunderstanding.
I agree on both counts, but we are in the minority on this point. Many, including Mr. Lohn as well as many posting here, have argued that transgender females shouldn’t be allowed to compete as females. Period.
I don’t know. I think it might take some time and some trial-and-error to identify a final standard that allows transgender females to compete as females while maintaining a relatively level playing field. Given that (contrary to popular belief) transgender athletes are extremely underrepresented in college and high level sports, it will probably take some time until we have the data necessary to more definitely make this determination.
But whatever the ultimate standard, it should be based on an honest assessment of all the facts and the best science. That isn’t what many are asking for.
Yale won the men’s lacrosse National Championship about 4 years ago. Princeton was a top contender for many years.
Great!
I never disputed that there are national championships from the Ivy League. Did anyone debate the lax victories by Yale and perhaps others like with Lia? Not AFAIK. No one really cares, outside of a small group, and I do not mean to denigrate the amazing accomplishment of winning a national championship.
Lia’s victory is clearly different, at least on CC. That’s my limited point. I am not aware of raging debates/discussion about Ivy national championships on CC except for her.
Again, the basic point is whether there is any reason her victory is invalid. No one here has shown that.
As valid as the those of the former East Germany swimmers in the seventies. They also followed the rules as they were known at the time. Nobody disputes that.
Everyone disputes that. East Germany engaged in an extensive and clandestine state sponsored doping program. It systematically doped thousands of athletes in violation of anti-doping rules and regulation, falsified tests, pulled athletes in danger of being caught, etc. Some of the athletes were apparently doped without their knowledge.
The more accurate question is whether all of her wins should be invalidated? If you win under unfair rules should your win still be valid? Maybe, because you had nothing to do with their adoption. But in this case I’d say no because the NCAA realized the rules were a problem and then wimped out by leaving the old rules in place when US Swimming stepped up and promulgated new ones.
But the broader question of this thread still remains: should biological men be allowed to compete against biological women? That’s the issue that underpins the validity of the victories. If yes, under what conditions and circumstances? To date none of the current competition rules at the HS, college or Olympic levels adequately address the issue because they’re primarily promulgated to facilitate inclusion rather than to incorporate science, in my opinion.
Why is it fair for transgender women to compete with testosterone levels that may be lower for biological men but are still are many times higher than the levels found in biological women? Why aren’t they required to maintain levels within the normal range for biological women in order to compete?
Fortunately 12 months (or I guess now it might be moved up to 36 for some swimmers) of estrogen treatments is all it takes to level the playing field between the sexes. Voilà! now we’re exactly the same. Or close enough because who really cares? As long as the testosterone numbers are lower than they used to be but no where near the levels of your competition the rest is just noise: bigger heart, bigger lungs, bigger hands, longer arms, more muscle mass. I’m sure estrogen treatments fix all that too. Maybe some or all of the other 36 women on the Penn swim team might care. But don’t worry about their feelings, aspirations, hard work, sacrifice etc….They’ll be just fine. They should just revel in the historic glory of Lia’s victory and count themselves lucky to have witnessed it.
Personally, I find it offensive that the sole difference between biological men and women is distilled down to testosterone levels, at least as far as sports are concerned. I’m not surprised though, people like numbers. They’re seemingly objective and easy to understand. As long as everyone accepts numbers as a solution, you don’t have to think too hard about the intricacies of the problem and you can pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
Thomas has put this issue front and center. The controversy surrounding the fairness of competition has exploded. Apparently more organizations are being forced to address possible advantages derived from going through male puberty and the physical gains that can potentially lock in. I think in the long run these current events will hopefully serve to push organizations to refine their rules and to provide a fair playing field where competitors won’t feel like they are being displaced because the rules haven’t necessarily kept up with changing circumstances.
It’s clear from watching/hearing the crowd response at recent races and hearing testimonials from competitors (some afraid to speak freely without fear of retribution, see below) that many in these competitions aren’t happy with the current rules. It’s a complicated issue that thankfully is starting to be looked at with more seriousness. Sporting competitions should be as fair as possible to the participants. When participants feel things aren’t fair it should be taken seriously and hopefully we’re moving in the right direction with that regard.
The eventual outcome? That’s still to be determined. Hopefully it’s something that is fair to the competitors. This issue has been pushed from several different angles but in the end what seems to matter most to the competitors is a mostly even playing field. Maybe that means adding more categories to competitions, maybe not. Maybe that means testosterone level “bands”, maybe not. In the end some won’t be happy but hopefully a fair outcome is reached, whatever that ends up looking like.
Some women’s sports, where possible advantages can be attained by athletes that went through male puberty, are experiencing a controversy. I think it’s ok to actually look into that possibility and adjust rules if necessary. Looking for fairness is much better than just ignoring what may be a potential problem just because it’s a controversial topic. It shouldn’t be seen as disparaging certain individuals if we want to determine if birth circumstances create an advantage down the road and to modify rules accordingly in the name of fairness.