because coed teams are not fun for competitive males due to the difference in levels discussed previously.
I don’t think a trans athlete would think of it opportunistically like that (goal of the 5th year to break records). For many elite athletes, their identity is as much tied up in their sport as it is in their gender. This athlete pretty much says that in the article. My take on this particular situation is the swimmer came out as a woman and transitioned. The pandemic took away an opportunity to compete that coincided with the transition. Because the person is a swimmer, and being on a swim team is part of who they have always been, they like many college athletes, opted for a fifth year of college so they could participate in the sport they love. Nothing shocking about that.
In this unique instance it meant that the swimmer would swim as a woman. Guessing here, but breaking records per se was probably not the motivation. Coming out is difficult, painful and complicated. The notion that someone would go through all that just to break records they know will never be seen as legitimate by many, that doesn’t ring true to me. What does ring true is once an athlete always an athlete. That student probably just wants to swim as part of the team that they swam with for the past three years and loves. Nothing nefarious about that. We just don’t know how to handle it, because we haven’t had to before.
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Never claimed the swimmer did it just to break more records, I would assume there are other motivations. Nevertheless, the perhaps unintended consequence is that this athlete will have an enormous biological advantage on the new team against different competitors due to the continued presence of the Y chromosome and 22 years of testosterone. Many of us find that unfair. Perhaps after 22 years of estrogen treatment, it might be more fair.
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This is a little off topic but just want to say that efforts at more diversity, inclusion and equity are happening in many fields, and those who are some combination of white, male, straight, non-disabled and so on may be losing spots and opportunities as a result. This is happening in academia, in the performing arts, and employment, for instance.
The slow mode has interfered with my editing. Just want to add that in the long run, I think that inclusion is good for everyone, even if there appear to be short term costs for some.
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Obviously you don’t know the rigors of club swimming. Club swimmers are not there for “fun.” If they want to “have fun” they can join the neighborhood summer league for a couple of months. My kids swim year round outdoors for 3 hours a day. There are many days it’s not fun! They can’t take off for a couple weeks for a break- their times will suffer to get back in shape.
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I agree it is not fun, but it should be, otherwise a very expensive time consuming and body destroying activity for the very very slight chance of an advantage in college admissions is tome a confusing choice. My kids were tennis players and for all of these reasons once it was no longer fun we stopped.
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My kids do not do club swim for scholarships- they aren’t good enough for Div I- but they like the workout and they like to pursue their own personal best. It’s not all about the money or getting into a school so please don’t lump your personal kids’ experiences with others.
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People compete in sports for a multitude of reasons, for fun, for competitive spirit, money, fame, survival, charity, etc. And they’re not mutually exclusive.
However, if you do think competing in sport must be done for fun, then I suggest you head on over to the “Trophies For Everyone” thread. 
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I think @Catcherinthetoast mentioned this idea first, but in horseshowing there’s a concept called “Hors de Concours” where you ride in an event, but your results don’t count. That way you have the experience, you can see how you stack up with the competition etc. People do this usually where they have an unfair advantage. For example, a professional who normally competes at a higher level is showing a younger, less experienced horse. That way the horse gets the full show/competition experience, but the professional doesn’t take the blue ribbon away from someone who is riding at their appropriate level.
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The title of the article is a bit harsher than what I wanted to write - I do NOT mean to call @vpa2019 transphobic, so sorry about that. The article is important enough that I am leaving it up.
Interesting article but it’s not clear to me how it’s relevant as to whether trans women should compete against cis women in sports. To my knowledge there’s little to no disagreement than trans women are biologically male which is the foundation of the issue we’re discussing. They change their gender not their sex. Nor does it show, at least in my opinion, that sex isn’t binary.
I’d also encourage you to read this response to the article you posted.
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That presupposes your views are more reasoned and robust than those of the NCAA and IOC guidelines that others have already posted? If anything, this is an issue for allegedly aggrieved persons to raise with Penn, the Ivy League, and/or the NCAA, isn’t it?
Spoken like a true SuperMod…oh, wait, so sorry…
CC is FULL of posts telling college applicants to chill about getting into a particular school and that the Ivies/T20s aren’t everything. How is this poster’s view any different? Everyone has a right to advocate a view, and it’s the SuperMods who tell CC posters if they’ve stepped out of line.
I think the article would have more weight if it was written by a scientist, but it isn’t - the author, Zach Elliott, graduated from Oklahoma State in 2021 with a BA in architecture.
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I was referring to the poster’s clear lack of knowledge about the advantage those with Y chromosomes have over those without, in swimming, and the extraordinary difference of a 38 second advantage in a field where winning usually comes down to less than one-tenth of a second. The poster didn’t seem to have an issue with understanding me; not sure why you do.
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Bird was 6’9", possessed incredible hand eye coordination and vision, had a quick first step, a great handle dribbling, and could shoot the lights out from anywhere. These are all rare physical gifts, honed by hard work, and greatly beneficial to basketball. So why on earth would anyone tell him basketball wasn’t the right sport for him?
The Larry Bird as non-athlete myth always reminds me of Isiah Thomas’ comments discussing racial stereotypes in sports and explaining why he had made a flippant (and inaccurate IMO) comment about how Bird, while excellent, was overrated because he was white:
What I was referring to was not so much Larry Bird, but the the perpetuation of stereotypes about blacks.
When Bird makes a great play, it’s due to his thinking, and his work habits. It’s all planned out by him. It’s not the case for blacks. All we do is run and jump. We never practice or give a thought to how we play. It’s like I came dribbling out of my mother’s womb. You hear it on television, you see it in the papers. . . The word ‘athletes.’ I think that that’s an unconscious statement concerning race. I don’t like it. Magic and Michael Jordan and me, for example, we’re playing only on God-given talent, like we’re animals, lions and tigers, who run around wild in a jungle, while Larry’s success is due to intelligence and hard work.
Blacks have been fighting that stereotype about playing on pure instinct for so long, and basically it still exists - regardless of whether people want to believe it or not. https://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/02/sports/sports-of-the-times-the-coloring-of-bird.html
While they are of a somewhat different nature, there are stereotypes at work in this discussion, too. Trans people aren’t out to game the system, they are trying to be their authentic selves, oftentimes at great personal cost. That’s not to say it isn’t complicated or nuanced, or that there aren’t tough considerations all around. But these are hardworking, well-meaning human beings we are talking about.
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Here is a scholarly article on physiological differences in regards to performance in different sports and a call for more research and sport specific guidelines for the inclusion of trans women.
This article appeared less polemic than those posted above and I’ll let posters come to their own conclusions.
Apparent fairness is important in all competition. I’m not sure it is ever objectively achieved but it is a goal to strive for.
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Thank you for sharing! I was surprised to see that swimming has the 2nd least advantage of the sports considered. If we are seeing this much difference in this case, I can only imagine what it looks like in terms of stats for a sport with a bigger advantage!
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I don’t see where that is a requirement for high school or NCAA participation in the women’s/girl’s division is a year, or that they suppress testosterone at all. It might be, but I haven’t see that.
I can’t edit my thread upstream due to slow mode but here’s my edit.
Edited to add: I’m not used to researching science that is controversial and political and I misspoke about this article being non-polemic. Apparently there is much backlash against it and its authors. I’ll let it stand for whatever it’s worth. I do not have enough knowledge on this topic it to review it as I would an article in my own field of specialty, but based on a quick review there might be some cherry picking of the data going on. My research doesn’t spark the same levels of interest in the public to say the least.
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