<p>nwcrazy, if he remembers his art history and differential equations courses 20 years later, then he’s got a photographic memory. </p>
<p>"My point is that many students who acquire skills in school, tend to forget them after a short period of time because they never learned the material the right way. If they acquired the knowledge/skills simply to do well on tests, they will forget them after the test is over. "</p>
<p>There is some small truth to this, but you are taking it to the extreeme. People are not machines and forget alot, no matter if they study the “right way” or not. Granted this is true of most training one does…use it or forget it. ITS NATURAL. Granted, this does decrease the “quality” of a degree, but it has always been the case. Even if students only remember 10% of everything they learned throughout college, that is still more than those who didnt go to college and it is the employers job to train them on the job, building off the fragile and basic foundation that school gave them.</p>
<p>I would not say it’s easy to graduate without debt, but it is certainly doable. Even if one does graduate with debt, it does not have to be a huge amount. I feel like thee majority of students on this board are more concerned with prestige and are willing to take the debt because they hope it will pay off.</p>
<p>I also believe that the purpose of education is to give you new ideas that fundamentally transform the way you look at things- even if you forget the fine points, your worldview is changed forever. I also believe that even if you forget most of the fine points of a course such as science or math, you are aware that the topics exist and know to look them up if needed, and where to look them up ( and isn’t the internet wonderful for that?)</p>
<p>“I’ve never said it was easy (graduate without a lot of debt) but it is entirely possible. We did it. Our son is doing it. It’s all about the choices one makes.”</p>
<p>hmmmm… i suppose it is possible but for most graduating without alot of debt is entirely unrealistic. tuition, living expenses, and the time it takes to complete a degree essentially takes the “choice” away from most students. I believe it was possibe for people in earlier generations, but things have changed.</p>
<p>“I would not say it’s easy to graduate without debt, but it is certainly doable. Even if one does graduate with debt, it does not have to be a huge amount. I feel like thee majority of students on this board are more concerned with prestige and are willing to take the debt because they hope it will pay off.”</p>
<p>Even if your on a regular student schedule (set to graduate in 4 years), you went to cc to save money, and then to a state school, and you don’t get money from your parents or a huge financial package of grants, i don’t see how it is doable. I’m not even talking “prestige” here, I am talking about attending regular old universities.</p>
<p>Man, there’s an epidemic of STUPIDITY in this country today. In the same way we can’t believe that people in the past used to crunch their waists into thin tubes with whale bones or brush their teeth with dog poop and whatnot, future generations won’t understand how MILLIONS of people could spend $50,000 on a clearly worthless degree.</p>
<p>I really tried to feel an ounce of sympathy for this person reading through this thread. I really did. But found none. A masters in Humanities? I hope she was that “passionate” about it that she is enjoying herself right now. She knew what she was getting herself into.</p>
<p>It was likely a lot easier to “work one’s way through college” with no or minimal debt a generation ago – college[1] was less expensive, and the types of jobs one could hold while “working one’s way through college” paid better in inflation-adjusted terms.</p>
<p>[1] Including community colleges and typical state universities.</p>
<p>If you start with the assumption that you need to go to a private college (or OOS public) and live away from home, then yes, it is difficult for most to graduate without a lot of debt.</p>
<p>But consider an alternative scenario: two years at a CC while living at home (here in Illinois full-time tuition about $2500 per year, maybe the same for books and transportation), then two at a nearby public university (about $8K per year here, plus books and transportation). Total cost, maybe $30-$35K for four years, can be handled easily even with a part-time, minimum wage job, as long as mom and dad are willing to provide food and a roof.</p>
<p>Of course, you won’t have “the full college experience” to which many think they are entitled - but you can get a first-rate education if you make it your business to do so.</p>
<p>I think part of the problem in “having so much faith in education” is that these college kids are afraid to go out into the real world. You hear it seldom, but college kids do say that while they want the workload to end, they want to stay at school and away from the “real world.” It’s a safe haven.</p>
<p>I understand the sentiment - they don’t feel like they’re done with their college experience yet, or that there’s something missing. But they have to snap out of it and see the bigger picture and stop being so afraid to try and get a job instead of staying within the only solid societal realm they know… they’ve been going to school for at least 15 years, they’re used to the security net and the stability. They must be weened. My two cents. :/</p>
<p>In 2008, 62% of graduates from public universities had student
loans. So we have 38% without student loans though it is possible
that they have other loans but I would think that those would be
fairly small or else they would go for student loans.</p>
<p>The average debt levels for graduating seniors with student loans
at public universities was $20,200. I don’t consider that a lot of
debt. For the sake of argument, let’s say that half are below and
half above that.</p>
<p>So we have 28% without student loans and 31% with loans under $20,200.</p>
<p>So much for “most”.</p>
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<p>Let’s say you’re in California where CC is under $1,000/year. Federal
tuition tax credits would pay for everything except for room and
board. The assumption is that you would live at home, work part-time
and summers for your spending money.</p>
<p>In my state, Community College would run around $3,800/year. You could
get about $2,400 from the tax credit and work part-time and over the
summer to help pay expenses and spending money. If you didn’t have
enough for a semester, take one off and work so that you can have
enough.</p>
<p>Local University costs $12K if you live at home and commute. $2,500
tax credit, part-time and summer jobs and you should be able to get
out with $20K in loans and/or grants.</p>
<p>Even assuming that everyone has a nearby public U and can find continuous, stable employment that won’t interfere with class schedules, I question that a $30K education is something that can be handled easily with a part-time, minimum wage job. That would mean working 20 hours a week year round and working extra hours during breaks to pay for luxuries like employment taxes. Some students may be able to handle a full course load and 20 hours/week but for many it would not be feasible. Also, many whose parents can’t/won’t contribute anything to their kid’s education also can’t/won’t provide food and shelter during that time. Those in the “can’t” category often need contributions from adult children who are still living at home in order to make ends meet. Those who can, but won’t, seem to be more of the mindset that kids should make it on their own. </p>
<p>I sympathize with students today…it was so much easier for us (and our parents) to afford college educations. Still, there is an entitlement present today that was not as prevalent with our generation. The “I worked too hard to start at a public (or CC)” mentality that we see here so often goes against the values that many of us were raised with. The question is, did we pass those values along or have we created a generation of kids who are too good for a humble start?</p>
<p>If your priorities are education and part-time employment, 20 hours a week is very doable. 15 hours class time + 30 hours study time (actually far more than the average, according to surveys) + 20 hours work time = 65 hours per week. Not an easy life, but for a young and energetic person, very feasible. Of course, it doesn’t leave a lot of time for a full social life.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Which is exactly why I qualified my statement with “as long as mom and dad are willing to provide food and a roof.”</p>
<p>I did this when I went to BC my first year.</p>
<p>One of my co-workers worked a lot of hours as a second or third
shift security guard. You do your rounds and then study at the
security office.</p>
<p>I already provided you with the numbers where most don’t graduate
from public universities with major debt. So there are a lot of
people out there that are going out and just doing it.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Then go non-traditional. Work, save, go to school and repeat. I
received my undergrad degree when I was 30. In between, I worked
many jobs and started my own business.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Those situations are harder and maybe they don’t have good options
but I have seen students in horrible financial circumstances get
their degrees through hard work, perseverance and some luck.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Where there is a will, there is often a way.</p>
<p>Just to provide some perspectives on working part time: I go to a college which is considered rigorous, work 20 hours a week, am a regular writer for the school newspapers, in a fraternity, and am close to pulling a 4.0 GPA.</p>
<p>BC, I actually wasn’t commenting on your previous post as we x-posted but I would say that, for some, the lost wages/opportunities from taking extra years to finish an undergrad degree simply to avoid student loans may not be worth it. Obviously, students need to take a hard look at their intended career field and salary potential when making those decisions. Btw, your debt numbers are a bit out of date and many students actually do take private loans without exhausting their federal loan options (weird, but often reported by FAA’s). Also, afaik the AO tax credit is not available to students, only to parents. </p>
<p>Annasdad, I’m wondering if you currently have kids enrolled at public schools and, if so, how many and for how long? It’s not impossible for a student to work 20 hours a week, but finding a job that offers those hours on a consistent basis and doesn’t conflict with class schedules can be quite challenging these days and I was commenting from a practical standpoint. Thirty years ago, I worked a paid internship for 20-25 hours/week for my final two years. Unfortunately, I wasn’t being paid to study on the job and managed to maintain a 3.8 gpa only because I was able to arrange my classes on a Tuesday/Thursday schedule along with some independent study. But, that was at a large private U with ample course offerings. I currently have 4 kids at public schools (class time exceeds 15 hours per week with labs btw, but they aren’t liberal arts majors so perhaps that doesn’t apply universally) and classes have definitely been getting more difficult to schedule in recent years due to the increased enrollments and budget cuts. There is very little consistency in my kids’ schedules from semester to semester and many times when both day and night classes are a must. This often means the day starts with an 8 or 9 am class and ends at 9 pm, with several gaps scattered throughout. In our experience, few outside employers want to accomodate student schedules with shifts of less than four hours and changes every 3 months when there is a plethora of workers willing to work any/all hours. Work study is a good option to fill those 2-3 hour gaps between classes but doesn’t really fit the consistent 20 hour/week model since funding is limited. Once in the upper divisions, many programs have mandatory (and generally unpaid) internship/fieldwork requirements which further cuts into the time available, although it provides very necessary experience. Certainly there are some situations that lend themselves to the “work your way through” method, but my point is that it’s really not a practical option for every full-time student…and it’s certainly not as easy at today’s prices as it was 30 years ago!</p>
<p>I find it interesting that so much of this thread has been spent berating students who choose to take on debt when the reality is that some people truly have no other option. We’re meant to pursue this nebulous concept of the “American Dream”, but the reality is that that’s not within reach for a lot of people. So they take a chance on some loans, hoping to better their situation, and they get slammed four years down the line. Is it irresponsible? Well, yes. But what do you expect when we live in a society where the heads of major corporations routinely get off completely scot-free after making egregiously stupid fiscal decisions? Just my two cents.</p>
<p>“I find it interesting that so much of this thread has been spent berating students who choose to take on debt when the reality is that some people truly have no other option.”</p>
<p>This is what is bugging me. College is a gamble but we are told it will pay off. Students don’t really have a very good choice.</p>
<p>“Just to provide some perspectives on working part time: I go to a college which is considered rigorous, work 20 hours a week, am a regular writer for the school newspapers, in a fraternity, and am close to pulling a 4.0 GPA.”</p>
<p>That does not sound like a rigorous program. I’ve had plenty of friends who worked a lot during the upper level courses, got poor grades, and then struggled to get interviews (there’s some perspective). However, even with 20 hours a week, without a very generous awards package or family support, your student loans will likely be substantial at graduation. </p>
<p>The attitude seems to be that everyone is able to work your way through college, graduate without a lot of debt, with good grades…and lets all blame the students who take out loans. The reality is if the schools didnt give out so many loans, almost no one would be able to attend college (just rich kids and full-ride students) and graduate in 4 years. Students rely on loans because they are needed, even moreso than in the past.</p>
<p>But she graduated with her BA with only $5,000 in debt. She was fine up until that point! It was the assinine Masters degree that sunk her! She never should have taken the masters degree. She would have been better off joining the Peace Corp at that point. That was a bonehead move and I don’t feel the least bit sorry for her.</p>