Trigger Warnings, Safe Spaces and Free Speech, Too (letter from Chicago student to NYT)

Parents Forum
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I was waiting for dstark’s response to ask my question. I am honestly confused.

So the student screaming “shut up” and “who the f hired you” at the professor is ok, but saying that the student is acting like a foul mouthed toddler is wrong? That may be the most illogical premise I have ever come across on these boards.

statement one: a student screams “shut up” and “who the f hired you”
statement two: the student is acting like a foul mouthed toddler

Neither is reasonable and respectful discourse. imho.

If one condemns the student’s speech, how is the response not worthy of condemnation?

What am I missing?

and on a sort of related point, does anyone besides me think adults modeling behavior for younger folks is an important part of educating them?

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@runswimyoga: I tend to think that the discussions prevented by both “safe spaces” and trigger warnings do not threaten anyone’s lives. If you have any evidence of such discussions putting people’s lives in danger, I am willing to rethink this view.

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I asked:* In a disagreement, who has the obligation to listen respectfully, and respond with reasoned discourse, to someone not of their own group?*

ohiodad answered: Everyone. It’s called living in a civilized society and is what ultimately keeps us from shooting each other in the street. I would have thought that obvious.

dstark answered: There is no obligation to listen. I think people should listen to contrary views but there is no obligation to listen.

I guess I don’t believe there is an obligation to listen. I don’t guess I believe there is an obligation to respond with reasoned discourse, but I agree it is what living in a civilized society is about, or maybe should be about. I am in favor of it whether or not it is an obligation of civilized society.

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Since we are talking about logic, that is called a anecdotal fallacy by the way.

I probably would have moved somewhere with fewer racists and less traffic.

Well, a couple responses. One, I said she was acting like a foul mouthed toddler, slight difference maybe. Second, Mark Twain (I think) once said “Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.” I have no interest in engaging with silly people who throw temper tantrums like children. It is likely that the professor wasn’t that interested either. I am assuming that he is not an idiot, and that he knew that kid and the others in the various videos had an agenda and weren’t listening to a thing he said. But there were probably kids on the fringes of the crowd, who were not full throated “THIS E MAIL IS THE MOST WORSTEST THING EVER!!!” who maye benefitted from a calm and rational approach.

For my own self, I don’t see any productive dialogue that doesn’t start from the point that the behavior of the students in the Yale, Dartmouth, UMass, etc. is out of bounds. So I am less concerned about stiffling dialogue with those who may think the students werre justified.

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@Demosthenes49 LGBT youth are 4 to 6 times more likely to commit suicide and Suicide is the leading cause of death among Gay and Lesbian youth nationally. 30% of Gay youth attempt suicide near the age of 15. Gays and Lesbians are two to six times more likely to suicide than Heterosexuals. Almost half of the Gay and Lesbian teens state they have attempted suicide more than once.

Hearing harsh rhetoric in the classroom and school environment can easily contribute to creating an environment where LGBT youth don’t learn to value themselves or that others value their contribution to society and a harsh rhetorical climate against lgbt is conducive to increased bullying of lgbt youth and therefore contribute to suicidal tendency of LGBT youth.

Also Suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death among young people ages 10 to 24. If young victims of PTSD, or those suffering from mental health issues say they need trigger warnings to feel better/safer then I am willing to provide them if it can in any way prevent suicide.

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I just used an anecdote. There is a great book about the history of the republican party that addresses this issue of people against government programs because minorities benefit. Don’t take from the white person to give to a black person. …you haven’t heard that? To Make Men Free by Richardson is the book. Check it out.

Many of our arguments are similar to the argumemts of 1870. Haven’t we gone far. :slight_smile:

The professor at Yale has an agenda too.
Both sides have a point of view.

Screaming doesn’t work well. The Yale student was frustrated but screaming doesn’t work well.

There are racists everywhere. My son went to school in Ohio. There are plenty of racists in Ohio.

I dropped the friend I mentioned. Many people I know dropped him. He doesn’t understand why forwarding racist emails everyday might bother his friends. :slight_smile:

I live in a pretty nice place. :slight_smile: I don’t have to move. I said I worked with many racists. I didn’t say everybody I worked with was a racist or even a majority of people I worked with were racists. There are plenty of good people here. Most people who live here don’t move unless their money runs out or they drop dead. :slight_smile:

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Unfortunately, lots of other places are worse. In http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-diverse-cities-are-often-the-most-segregated/ , most California large cities tend to be less racially segregated than many other states’ large cities like Chicago, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc… Los Angeles is the main exception, being more relatively segregated than typical, though not as relatively segregated as Chicago, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc…

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The ACA is a great example of how people take offense when no offense was done or intended or even on the radar screen - yet, it was easy to be offended by people’s positions.

I opposed the ACA as an individual. I was dutifully called all sorts of names. I also wrote a couple articles about why I was against the ACA and not one word in the articles talked about people or against anyone - my entire position was based on what I believe government can and cannot do and the role of business and healthcare choices for its employees. Yet, people found that offensive and labeled me everything in the book - all because i did not support the ACA.

I also said the same in the name of my company and said that my company would do whatever it takes to opt out. Well, the same people who called us offensive are now complaining about the high premiums, while my company gets better insurance coverage at 40% lower. Not hard to do if you know the law and know how to opt out. However, just opting out was enough for SWJs to call us names etc.

Therefore, it is not in my interest to even talk to anyone about the ACA and try to discuss my position. The beginning premise is always I was selfish, evil , and other stupid thing. So no need to waste my time. One thing I do know, my employees were/are thrilled (I assume they are because I do not run the company day-to-day anymore) with the money they save over the people who are getting skewered by the high rates and high deductibles.

My point - people can call and label anything offensive, even though it is not.

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@runswimyoga: I appreciate your response, but it feels a bit attenuated to me. We’re talking about courses that warn/exempt students from certain material (trigger warnings) or colleges that provide, by geographic area, places free from certain views.

Your point seems to be that “hearing harsh rhetoric” in the classroom contributed to the suicide risk of LGBT persons. Even granting that, how is that affected by either trigger warnings or “safe spaces”? A trigger warning might let them know what’s coming but wouldn’t change either their hearing or harsh rhetoric. A “safe space” might prevent discussion at all (which would prevent them hearing it) but if that’s the relevant topic I’ve a hard time seeing how that’s ultimately beneficial.

Your general point seems to me better taken as “people should be nicer.” That’s a point I strongly agree with. I’m just not sure that it translates into either TW or SS.

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I know, I was just funnin’ with ya.

Of course. So what? The issue is the kid looked like an idiot, and the professor looked rational. If I was really excited by the potential that someone, somewhere may dress up in a potentially insensitive halloween costume I would be more concerned with trying to stop the kid from acting like a cry baby than in convincing the rest of the rational world that what occured actually didn’t happen. You know, move the small rock, not the big one.

Unlikely that people were defending college students screaming at their professors and telling them to shut up in 1870. I really doubt that the students would have been screaming for more rigorous enforcement of some puritiancial code of thought/behavior then either.

Ohio is perfect in every way. You sure you are not talking about Michigan?

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@awcntdb, I am sorry people called you names. If you can get health insurance for your employees at 40 percent less than exchange rates why would you use ACA?

I have a friend who employs over 50 people and he hates ACA. He is not a racist. He just doesn’t want to pay for the insurance.

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Define harsh?

I suspect “harsh” is also in the mind of the listeners even if nothing actually harsh is said, just like offensive is determined only by the person who says he is offended. So pretty much the same playbook of calling things names that may not apply.

(Emphasis mine)

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My daughter went to Michigan and my son went to Ohio State and like I said we live in California. :slight_smile:

I had one of those huge banners in my house. 6 by 8 ft. I think. Half the banner was pro Ohio State and the other half was pro Michigan. There was a line in between both sides. The banner said, “A House Divided”.

When my son said he was going to go to Ohio State, my daughter, who was at Michigan at that time, called me up.

“Dad, when MIchigan and Ohio State play each other, you are going to root for Michigan, right?”

I can’t say no to my daughter. :slight_smile:

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Part of the landscape, I am used to it. Just makes no sense given that nothing I said was offensive in any way, but people found a way to take offense.

Ah, the law did not start out as a choice; it started out that all companies were going to forced to be in the exchanges. It was not until companies such as mine went at the government that lawmakers put in several provisions that got us exempted.

Many companies just rolled over and now cannot get out and are getting soaked. We never got in the first place.

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@Demosthenes49 @awcntdb
While I wish the classrooms were in fact safe spaces where homophobic and racist rhetoric wasn’t allowed, I do understand in the interest of “free speech” that it is an imperative.

After hearing such rhetoric in class and in social settings (by speakers perhaps), it is extremely important for the minority and marginalized students that are the recipients of that rhetoric, to have safe geographical spaces on campus to get support. There have been studies done that show this helps prevent suicide, and prevents students from skipping classes and retention rates for minority youth in schools.

For victims of PTSD, mental heath sufferers, or other at risk groups, being forewarned that something traumatic/ harsh is about to be or might be encountered, trigger warnings provide a way to mentally prepare so the students feel a measure of control. Feeling in control of a situation helps lesson suicidal ideation. Suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death among 10-24 yr old group. I believe in preventing suicide.

You might have missed my post on another thread about how my gay son walked into a classroom where a Westboro Baptist Church Video was played as an example of free speech. 45 mins of God hates … (slur) and gays deserve to die to make God happy.

My son didn’t want to go back to that class or school ever again. There were no other gay students in the classroom or even “out” at the school.

My son had been bullied at that school and members of the sports team who had bullied my son were in that class. My son didn’t know if he was under threat by the teacher too or not. A trigger warning saying that kind of material was about to be shown would have helped lesson the impact on my son. He sat in terror for 45 mins.

It would have been nice to have a “safe space” to go to after that experience to decompress. One where the homophobic bullies weren’t allowed to express their homophobic views.

I have many other examples like that which occurred where a trigger warning and a safe space would have helped. Rhetoric such as when discussing should gays be allowed to adopt in AP Language, references to gays being pediphiles and the end of humanity and an abomination to God…

If you haven’t experienced the need for a safe space or a trigger warning, then it will be hard for you to understand why the need for them is so important by those who do need them, but rest assured they are helpful to those who need them.

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@awcntdb Funny,
I can’t even define here on CC the harsh things my son has heard while at school, be it in the classroom or in the halls or on social media directed at him because of the “bad word” filtering software and the terms of service.

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@runswimyoga: I think I should clarify my position. I’m not against the use of “safe spaces” insofar as what people mean by that is a support group or private club. I agree that support groups are often helpful. I oppose the broad view of “safe spaces” where they grow to enclose whole buildings, all the time (e.g., the Yale dorms), including classrooms (e.g., law school criminal courses abandoning teaching rape law).

For mental health sufferers, there is no need to adopt trigger warnings. The Americans with Disabilities Act already requires reasonable accommodation. If they need warnings there’s no reason they can’t ask the professor, who is obligated to comply. Trigger warnings are for everyone who wants to pretend to have PTSD (or other “trauma”) but in fact has no basis for this claim (and therefore can’t rely on the statute).

I agree that your son’s teacher acted egregiously. That is not to say that a WBC video could never be part of a lesson, but my understanding is the teacher in your son’s case just played the video with no discussion. That’s not teaching, that’s proselytizing, and a professional disgrace. The solution to that isn’t to adopt either general “safe spaces” or trigger warnings though, it’s to fire the teacher.

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@Demosthenes49 But don’t you think there may be students who perhaps haven’t registered with disability services or aren’t officially “under Drs care” who do suffer from mental illness, that may benefit from trigger warnings. Its just a quick heads up- to help students prepare, or feel more control, its not a “get out of class” card.

I have heard and read about stories of long waits for college students to get the counseling and mental health help they need on campus. There are a lot of suicides on campus. There are more and more cases of students “going off” and shooting or attacking their peers… wouldn’t even an ounce of prevention be worth it? Must students labeled themselves disabled to get prevention?

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Great post, Demosthenes.

I know that the world is harder for some people than others. But when your experiences make you incapable of enduring ordinary (as in common, non-harassing) discourse without significant distress, that’s something pathological that needs to be explored in therapy and dealt with through accommodations (and, of course, being subjected to 45 minutes of the Westboro Baptist Church without warning or commentary is not common, non-harassing discourse).

Let’s leave aside the more charged examples and consider the case of someone who has lost a loved one to cancer. It is understandable that that person is going to be more upset than the average person by even the mention of cancer, which might have the effect of reminding them of their loss and reawakening the associated emotions. That is understandable – but it also isn’t a tenable way to go through life. It is probably possible to avoid watching movies or reading books about someone dying of cancer (and to avoid signing up for courses that have such content listed on their syllabi). It isn’t possible to avoid someone casually mentioning their friend with cancer, using the phrase “a cancer on society,” or seeing posters for a 5-K to raise money for cancer research. If you are triggered by all of these things, frankly, warning for discussion of cancer in a course isn’t going to be enough.

Obviously, teachers – and everyone else – should try to be sensitive. But once we’re in the realm of asking for trigger warnings for content that isn’t more extreme than what you would see on the news or encounter in mainstream political discourse or everyday conversation, we’re normalizing the pathological. There are already mechanisms to provide support and even academic accommodations to students struggling with mental illness. Let’s not put the onus on protecting the mental health of the truly ill on the professors – or pretend that trigger warnings should be necessary for the mentally healthy. Some content is supposed to be upsetting.

Edited to respond to runswimyoga: I think everyone is responsible for behaving with sensitivity to others. I don’t think asking professors not trained in mental health to gauge what might or might not be potentially triggering to hypothetical students every time they teach a book is reasonable or responsible, aside from other pedagogical issues with certain triggers.

What if there is no rape scene, but the word rape is mentioned? Do I have to give death warnings every time there is a death, or only if the death is a murder? What if it happens off-page? If a book from an earlier era otherwise has nothing to do with race, but includes a racist joke, does that need a trigger? How about warnings for heteronormativity? Do we need to have trigger warnings for mentions of alcohol, in case we have students in recovery? How about warnings for discussion of weight, or use of the word “fat” for those with eating disorders?

And again, in the age of the internet, students can preview content on their own. A student shouldn’t be stunned to find out that To Kill a Mockingbird is a novel that heavily concerns a rape trial, or issues of racism.

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@apprenticeprof I do hear what you are saying. I get your point, but I have found the mechanisms to provide support don’t really work that well at least in respect to mental health on campus. You can google tons of reports about the mental health crises on college campuses. At my son’s school for instance, I read its a 2 month wait for an appointment.

I really don’t think we are talking about cancer here.

From what I understand most of the trigger warnings asked for are about rape and child abuse.

The justice dept came out with a recent report about 1 in 5 women sexually assaulted on campus https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2016/01/21/justice-department-1-5-women-sexually-assaulted-college

“The study joins several others released in the last year that have consistently found that one in five female students have experienced sexual assault, lending further support to the oft-cited, but frequently contested, statistic popularized in recent years by activists and the White House.”

If 1 in 5 are being sexually assaulted and trigger warnings can help them succeed in the classroom should we really make women declare themselves disabled to get what will help them succeed in the classroom?