True/False: Penn is very pre-professional

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
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<p>The phrase "pre-professional" gets thrown around a lot on the Penn forum here. You hear a lot of "Penn is very pre-professional" or "compared to the other Ivies, Penn is the most pre-professional." </p>

<p>But what does that even mean?</p>

<p>Does pre-professional mean the student body is, on average, more focused on securing jobs rather than developing a community or learning?</p>

<p>And if it is true that a "pre-professional" atmosphere exists at Penn, is this a good or bad thing? What types of students would not be a good fit in a "pre-professional" campus culture?</p>

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<p>Sorry to rant but I too hear this phrase thrown around a lot, and to my knowledge it means that a Penn education is geared towards skills that you will actually use in the work place. For example many Whartonies want to go into banking and Wharton offers course work that will be useful in finance. This is opposed to other Ivy’s that many times dont offer pre-professional major like finance. If you want to go into banking graduating from HYP you will have to major in econ.
Personally I love the fact that Penn offers a “pre-professional” education. I do not intend to spend over $200,000 and 4 years of my life learning things that I will never again use. I think the notion that the sole purpose of college is to broaden your horizons is preposterous. Thinking like this is why 1 out of every 2 recent college grads is unemployed. Penn is the perfect mix between a liberal arts education and a “pre-professional” education.</p>

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<p>Ivygolfer said: “Penn is the perfect mix between a liberal arts education and a “pre-professional” education.”</p>

<p>Is it? I think this varies based on the needs of the individual. It sounds like Penn is a great mix for you, Ivygolfer, and that’s great, but it may not be for others.</p>

<p>The fact is there are probably about 12-15 universities out there that boast roughly the same exit options and career opportunities. The cultures of these universities vary considerably, though, and each student needs to find the right fit for them. </p>

<p>The OP needs to find a good fit for him/her. When I was looking at colleges, Penn wasn’t a good fit for me, but I can see how it’s really great for others.</p>

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<p>Wharton is pre-professional</p>

<p>CAS is not</p>

<p>SEAS is definitely not</p>

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<p>The bottom line is that Penn has a very strong liberal arts presence and culture, from its School of Arts and Sciences with its 6400 undergrads and lots of top-10 and top-20 liberal arts departments (e.g., English, Antrho, History, Religion, Art History, Classics, Romance Languages, Linguistics, Sociology, Psychology, etc.), to such “liberal-artsy” facilties, programs, and activities as the Kelly Writers House, Penn Humanities Forum, Philomathean Society, Penn Museum, Platt Student Performing Arts House, and Institute of Contemporary Art (to name just a few examples). So, in essence, Penn encompasses a liberal arts ethos and culture comparable to that found at other Ivy and top schools.</p>

<p>In addition, however, Penn also has world-class undergraduate preprofessional programs–Wharton and Nursing–that most other Ivies and top schools do NOT have. Many people–including the vast majority of Penn students–view this as a plus, in that it opens up their educational and social horizons to an extent not possible at schools that provide a strictly liberal arts undergraduate environment. Others might see it as potentially detracting from their undergraduate liberal arts experience. It’s really a matter of personal preference. But the bottom line is that there is a strong undergraduate liberal arts presence on Penn’s campus (remember that Penn’s College of Arts and Sciences is as large as or larger than the undergraduate liberal arts components of all of the other top private universities). But, unlike most of Penn’s peers, there’s also a lot more. :)</p>

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<p>In response to the question ‘what does pre-professional mean?’ - when people say that, I don’t really get it either but I do kind of know how to define it by saying what it’s not. I have always understood it to mean that a lot of the kids don’t plan on going into academia and other intellectual fields. It’s less ‘rich mahogany and leather-bound books’ than other schools. </p>

<p>That is what I have come to understand pre-professional as. If that applies to Penn - I have no idea. I don’t go there.</p>

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<p>true. but i, and most of the student body, like it that way. </p>

<p>pre-professional education (first med and business school, first inter-disciplinary programs, etc.) is one of penn’s distinguishing characteristics, and one which i hope will be promoted in the decades and centuries to come. </p>

<p>ps: if you do your research, you’ll find the other ivies are following penn’s lead in this.</p>

<p>ps2: the VIPER program is perhaps the best example of what a penn education is like–a blend of the theoretical with the practical.</p>

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<p>actually all three have a sizable portion of students desiring a preprofessional education (very doable in the college as well, btw) and a small minority of dedicated academics.</p>

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If fact, with VERY few exceptions (e.g., CalTech), ALL top schools–including all of the Ivies–have only “a small minority of dedicated academics” in terms of career plans and ultimate career paths. In general, less than 20% of undergrads at virtually all of these schools (again, with the exception of maybe 3 schools including CalTech)–and for the overwhelming majority of the top schools (including all of the Ivies), it’s less than 15%-- end up getting a Ph.D.</p>

<p>So where do the vast majority of the undergrads at all of these schools end up? In business or a profession (obviously). :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>did i imply anything else?</p>

<p>what i like about penn is that you have the academic types from all three schools, and often some who are in two of the three. really adds to the academic diversity, and makes an environment that few other colleges can compete with (perhaps only stanford).</p>

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Nope. I was just reinforcing what you said–not disputing it. And adding that at virtually ALL top schools, the situation is the same. :)</p>

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<p>Yeah, the reality of college education is that the majority of ALL college students finish their education when they get their bachelor’s degrees. In that sense, many schools do their students a disservice by not providing adequate resources to help them find jobs after graduation. In my opinion, Penn did an EXCELLENT job of encouraging its students to pursue their passions.</p>

<p>As mentioned above, very few students pursue academia as a career path coming out of any school, including top schools. At Penn, the undergraduate nursing, engineering and business programs generally produce graduates who wish to enter the workforce immediately. The College has comparably few graduates entering the workforce (58% last year, compared to 86% of business students), but the majority of College graduates not entering the workforce are going into professional school or completing a master’s degree. Again, these numbers are not at all ridiculous compared to other schools (61.8% of Harvard College graduates entered the workforce in 2011, while only 19% entered graduate/professional school).</p>

<p>I will say, when I hear about my friends’ experiences at other schools, I become increasingly grateful for the atmosphere at Penn. There is a distinct difference: At many schools, students are encouraged to pursue their own interests; at Penn, students are encouraged to pursue their own interests AND given a viable career path for whatever they decide they want to do. If you want to go to law school, Penn’s law school advisers are top notch; if you want to get a PhD, you are encouraged to talk to professors considered the best in their field (or, in the case of positive psychology and several others, you can talk to professors who created their field).</p>

<p>I fear that websites like this proliferate the idea that because a school encourages its students to succeed at what they do, students miss out on some of the more classic liberal arts traditions. That is absolutely not the case. Take a political theory, philosophy, linguistics or literature course and you will see that liberal arts traditions are alive and well. Take an an economics course and you will see a great blend of theory and practicality: In 2008, on the very first day in January, our professor, who had literally written the book on macroeconomics (as in she wrote our textbook), predicted a global recession the likes of which we had never seen; as the recession became more apparent, we spent significant time tying the real world to the theory we were learning.</p>

<p>To the point of the original poster, I’m honestly not sure what “pre-professional” means. It is a term that people throw around based on what they have heard about a school they visited perhaps once, but they don’t necessarily know what they’re talking about.</p>

<p>Out of my friends and acquaintances from Penn, only one (out of roughly 250 whom I would consider acquaintances) graduated without already knowing what they were going to be doing; out of my friends from other schools, probably 40% left college unemployed (i.e. unsuccessfully seeking employment). Since most students who get bachelor’s degrees want to get jobs, I see positively nothing wrong with an environment that encourages developing skills in addition to knowledge.</p>

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<p>Here’s my take on this debate:</p>

<p>The conversation should be more about dominant cultures on campus rather than trying to quantify or objectively reach a conclusion on the matter.</p>

<p>I’ll try to argue my point by proving the alternative.</p>

<p>In the 1990s, I attended UChicago, a school that, at the time was known for being highly, highly “academic.” By academic, I mean that the school fetishized the PhD, and pursuing the PhD was considered a laudable goal.</p>

<p>Now, maybe 25% of my class went on to get PhDs. Literally HUNDREDS of students in my class went on to become lawyers, doctors, financiers, etc. At the same time, I would certainly state that U of C was academic in the 90s.</p>

<p>Why? Because a dominant, disproportionally loud voice and culture was from the budding academics and their pursuits. The VAST majority of my peers never shot for careers in the ivory tower. At the same time, the future academics (and those considering this path) were a dominant voice on campus, and the “pre-professional” kids (i.e. the ones gunning for wall street, law school, etc.) were more muted, especially given their significant numbers on campus.</p>

<p>Does this happen at Penn? I’m not sure. The interesting conversation though, to me, is to discuss whether certain voices and cultures are disproportionately loud on campus. </p>

<p>As an example of this, here’s a link to a documentary, “The Purpose of Money” that sheds some light on the subject at Duke. While only a handful of students are interviewed, its interesting hearing their takes on the dominant cultures that exist on campus. </p>

<p>Here it is:</p>

<p>[Josh</a> Evans: “The Purpose of Money” Beyond The Front Porch 2012](<a href=“http://beyondthefrontporch2012.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2012/04/30/josh-evans-the-purpose-of-money/]Josh”>Josh Evans: “The Purpose of Money” | Beyond The Front Porch 2012)</p>

<p>Again, the conversation should be about what dominant cultures and voices have emerged on campus, and what voices are perhaps more muted. Some may argue that Penn has a true diversity of voices and cultures, with no particular culture or voice (be it from the fraternities, student clubs, pre-professional kids, whatever), but I doubt this is true. Every school has some cultures that gain a disproportional share of the air time.</p>

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<p>While there is definitely a significant number of people who are pre-professional on campus as well as many pre-professional opportunities, I would not say that it dominates the school or is a bad thing. Most people seem to associate the term “pre-professional” with an unhealthy obsession of getting a job or into medical/law/business school, but I don’t think this has to be the case. I think it’s a great thing that Penn inspires to students to pursue their passions outside of college life whether their passions lie in anything from law, to social policy, to geology. I disagree with the assumption that one can’t have intellectual interests if one wants to go into a field like business or medicine. I have had plenty of intellectual conversations with people from Wharton who have a variety of intellectual interests, even in areas like art history.</p>

<p>I would probably be considered the opposite of pre-professional by most people and I fit in fine here. I plan to get a phD and possibly go into academia. Several of my friends are also interested in this possibility. What I love about Penn is that the university places a huge emphasis on research, much of which is interdisciplinary. For example, Pennergy is an organization focused on energy research that spans departments like physics, materials science, and mechanical and electrical engineering.</p>

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<p>Poeme:</p>

<p>So the old view was that “intellectualism” meant devoting oneself to a life of academia (i.e. getting a PhD or, perhaps, becoming a wonk). Certainly, budding jurists or doctors can be intellectual but, unless they were devoting themselves to academia (i.e. an MD/PHD or a JD/PHD), they wouldn’t be considered “true” intellectuals. </p>

<p>At least, that’s how the cookie crumbled more than a decade ago when I was at a highly academic university. Again, I think of “intellectual” as being another way of saying “PhD-fetishizing.” </p>

<p>From my background, it was a pretty narrow definition. In many ways, it’s good that most schools (my alma mater included) are moving away from this type of thinking.</p>

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<p>FYI, only about 15%–and not 25%–of the undergrads at Chicago when you were there went on to get PhDs:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/6226448-post2.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/6226448-post2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I’d imagine that the percentage is even lower now, given the recent expansion and diversification of Chicago’s applicant pool–the price of “success.” ;)</p>

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<p>45percenter:</p>

<p>Thanks for the link, and that actually feeds my earlier point. Until seeing the stats you posted, I just ballparked the figure at 25%, mainly because getting a PhD seemed to be on EVERYONE’s mind at UChicago in the 90s. The fact that the actual number is only 15% (not that different from Yale and Harvard) shows just how amplified the “intellectual” voice on campus was when I was at UChicago. </p>

<p>I wonder if there are any voices like that on Penn’s campus. I always thought Yale had a bit of an amplified law school craving voice, but then it turns out that a ton of yale grads actually go on to law school. </p>

<p>I’m also curious to note if Penn’s PhD production has increased since the 90s. 6.5% in the 90s seems lower than I’d have thought prior to seeing the stats.</p>

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<p>^ Remember that Penn’s 6.5% is out of its total undergraduate student body of 10,000, including 3,600 or so students in Wharton, Nursing, and Engineering (not that some of those students don’t go on to get PhDs–in fact they do, but probably not to the extent that students in the College do, especially with respect to Wharton and Nursing). What that means is that, at any given time during the relevant period, there were 650 undergrads on the Penn campus who subsequently went on to get PhDs.</p>

<p>Again, Penn has an intellectual/academic presence within its undergraduate student body (as measured by PhD production) comparable to that of its peers; it just also has the strong preprofessional presence of Wharton and Nursing that most of its peers do not have. Many would argue that for the truly open-minded, expansive, and interdisciplinary thinkers among us (cough, cough–Ben Franklin–cough, cough ;)), that additional presence is a PLUS, and not a minus.</p>

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<p>I don’t want to add to the discussion too much, but the Penn Undergrad Class of 2011 Career Survey is interesting:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/undergrad/reports/Class2011CareerPlans.pdf[/url]”>http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/undergrad/reports/Class2011CareerPlans.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Penn does a great job of tracking its graduates. I’m a bit surprised to note that, of the Penn grads (across all schools) that are employed, 52% of them are going into finance/consulting. </p>

<p>Given that Penn has a nursing school, communications school, liberal arts college, etc., having 52% of employed graduates going into finance/consulting is surprising. Penn has a much wider array of undergrad schools than, say, Yale or Brown, but 52% of the employed grads are off to finance/consulting jobs. This is a bit higher than I expected. </p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

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<p>Besides Engineering and Teach for America Cue, what other jobs are there? :wink: Alas, I kid I kid…</p>